If Jaina's A Hero in The Next Xpac, Should We Forgive Her?

[Golden Yak]

Jaina could use a redemption arc. She's had a tough time since Warcraft 3. I'd rather her story end in a win than her becoming another raid boss.

[mysticx]

Jaina could use a redemption arc. She's had a tough time since Warcraft 3. I'd rather her story end in a win than her becoming another raid boss.

Why a redemption arc? After all she's been through trying to broker peace with the Horde, and the knife in the back she got as "thanks", she's quite justified in her thoughts and actions...

Besides, to use the standby-excuse for Horde belligerence: It's "World of WARcraft!"

[Azalar]

Why a redemption arc? After all she's been through trying to broker peace with the Horde, and the knife in the back she got as "thanks", she's quite justified in her thoughts and actions...

Besides, to use the standby-excuse for Horde belligerence: It's "World of WARcraft!"

Well, in wartime there's always the one who fights for peace. Jaina is one of the sort.

[CaptainV]

Jaina could use a redemption arc. She's had a tough time since Warcraft 3. I'd rather her story end in a win than her becoming another raid boss.

Ideally, what id like to see is that she does something terrible at the start of the expansion, then over the course of it, redeems herself and becomes the new Guardian of Azeroth, thus giving her a finale ending to her story, Medivh 2.0

[mysticx]

Well, in wartime there's always the one who fights for peace. Jaina is one of the sort.

And for all her work, the Horde (Don't say "Just Garrosh", everybody else was all too eager to follow him) blew her city and all its citizens to hell with the WoW-equivalent of a nuke, so i can imagine Jaina being done with fighting for peace...

[Deleted]

She is a hero, but I think you meant part of main story.

Depends, are you Horde or Alliance?

I mean, a lot of Horde players seemed to have forgiven Garrosh, an orc who did much worse.

The orc we killed?

[Lochton]

The orc we killed?

We didn't even get to kill him ^^

[Deleted]

We didn't even get to kill him ^^

Well Thrall XD

[Lochton]

Well Thrall XD

Stole the ramplights he did.

But what I meant was, some players saw Garrosh as a hero. And well, Jaina isn't really that bad.

[Mehrunes]

Sometimes something happens that restores my faith in humanity. Then I come upon another Jaina thread.

I know that a lot of people have zero empathy, and don't even have a clue what it is. But seriously, the amount of stupidity in this thread is overwhelming. Defending garrosh, just because you play horde, while hating Jaina? I don't even...Curious how you would act if everything you ever loved, worked for in your life, got obliterated in an instant by a piece of trash coward. Really wish, with all my heart, that it happens to every single garrosh lover. Have a fun life then, let's see how you "get over it" the next day, like apparently Jaina should

*Rails about how other people are stupid* *Fails to separate Jaina's trauma from Jaina's actions (particularly those before Theramore's destruction)* OK then, you giant of intellect

[Mehrunes]

Why a redemption arc? After all she's been through trying to broker peace with the Horde, and the knife in the back she got as "thanks", she's quite justified in her thoughts and actions...

Besides, to use the standby-excuse for Horde belligerence: It's "World of WARcraft!"

Except Jaina's forces were the first one to attack after the factions made a ceasefire after WotLK. If there was any action involving knives and backs, Jaina was the one holding the knife.

And for all her work, the Horde (Don't say "Just Garrosh", everybody else was all too eager to follow him) blew her city and all its citizens to hell with the WoW-equivalent of a nuke, so i can imagine Jaina being done with fighting for peace...

The fact that since shortly before the Cataclysm all her work exclusively focused on attacking the Horde could have something with why Theramore was destroyed.

Don't have wish to response someone who acting so hostile if my opinion doesn't same as their. Calm down, stop using personal attacks and maybe we talk. Until then bye. Too bad you wasted time for so big wall of text for nothing. Sorry.

I don't care about your opinion. Consider Sylvanas to be undead Hitler with tits all you want. What I care about is that instead of supporting it with actual lore you pull abject bullshit out of your ass. And you're the one who started with personal insults, so fuck off with your hypocrisy (and with your shitty attempt at deflecting the reason behind the hostility).

[alt-ithist]

Except Jaina's forces were the first one to attack after the factions made a ceasefire after WotLK. If there was any action involving knives and backs, Jaina was the one holding the knife.




The fact that since shortly before the Cataclysm all her work exclusively focused on attacking the Horde could have something with why Theramore was destroyed

Garrosh and the horde were the first to attack according to wolf Heart. Theramore responded to save the night elves then set up in the barrens to press the advantage and make sure Garrosh didn't try again. If anything it shows they were too lenient after what Garrosh pulled in ashenvale and darkshore.

[Mehrunes]

Garrosh and the horde were the first to attack according to wolf Heart. Theramore responded to save the night elves then set up in the barrens to press the advantage and make sure Garrosh didn't try again. If anything it shows they were too lenient after what Garrosh pulled in ashenvale and darkshore.

And yet Tides of War says she created the highway through Dustwallow that was supposed to help out Night Elves by supplying Alliance based in Southern Barrens because she got intel Garrosh was planning to attack Ashenvale. Planning being the imperative word. Also an important thing to note here is that those bases were in Southern Barrens (never mind that Barrens was Horde territory to begin with). So after the Cataclysm. Which means after Northwatch attacked Crossroads and captured Honor's Stand (i.e. one of "their" bases in Southern Barrens to be supplied by Jaina in a preemptive measure in regards to Garrosh's plans).

[LaserChild9]

And can the Orcs be blamed for the demon's actions? No.

So who's to blame for the invasion of Azeroth? Demons, not the Horde.

The Orcs drank the demon blood willingly, it was not forced on them. They were responsible for that and anything they did while using it. I'm not saying that the current horde is made up of these same Orcs, but the Orcs that invaded earned their places in the internment camps.

If you get high and then run someone over and kill them, is that your dealers fault or yours? Because that is what you are saying, you are trying to pass off the Orcs actions as not their own. They knew what they were coming to Azeroth to do and they went anyway, just because the Legion accommodated it, does not mean the Orcs were innocent.

And let's be real, you ALREADY blame the Horde leaders for everything that Garrosh did (See the post directly above mine), so...

They all played a part, none of them stood up to Garrosh but they knew what he was doing. Garrosh was 1 man in control of 1 race of the Horde, if they wanted to stop him, they could have. Storywise they did stop him, but only after he Nuked Theramore, evicted all non Orc races from Orgrimmar, has Sylvanas monitored, steals from the Kirin Tor and empowers himself with the heart of an Old God. If they didn't agree with him, why did they not stop him sooner? It would have been far easier than waiting until he consolidated his power.

[Deleted]

Of course you can forgive her. After all the character development she'll get in a novel or comic book or novella posten on the website.

[Friendlyimmolation]

Don't have wish to response someone who acting so hostile if my opinion doesn't same as their. Calm down, stop using personal attacks and maybe we talk. Until then bye. Too bad you wasted time for so big wall of text for nothing. Sorry.

One if not the most ironic statements I have ever read from a poster on these forums, who the hell are you trying to fool?

[LaserChild9]

After being lied to and deceived by one orc who was approached by Kil'jaeden.

Durotan and the frostwolf clan didn't, they could see it was wrong so why couldn't the others? Would it be acceptable to forgive Kil'Jaeden and Archimonde because they were manipulated by Sargeras? Should the Draenei forgive them for what they did because someone else manipulated them?

Or would you like to say Arthas taints the entire Alliance because he was deceived into becoming the Lich King willingly? Or should we go even further and say the entire Scourge is the Alliance's fault because not only did Arthas become the Lich King and lead an entire army of undead against Azeroth, but ALSO because Bolvar is the new Lich King and appears to be doing some questionable things with the Death Knights even now?

Artha's gets no special consideration either. He was a shit. He started out doing what he thought was right and he was corrupted by, guess who? Lich King at the time, that's right, Ner'Zhul one of those Orc chieftians that drank the blood... So by your logic, Arthas did nothing wrong because he was corrupted by Ner'Zhul right?

1) Because that's not how politics works. The Horde as a conglomerate does not meet up on a weekly basis and say "So what have we done that upset someone this week?"

The Warchief gives an order and justifies it. Either the Horde provides it's resources or they do not. In all of the cases you mentioned, only Orcs and Goblins participated in the fighting. Orcs are following Garrosh as their leader, Goblins follow money. None of the rest of the Horde participated nor supported the rest of the attacks. Over time, this lack of support fed Garrosh's belief that the Horde was against him and eventually turned the Horde against him.

You'd think in a lore discussion I wouldn't have to mention this.

2) The Horde has no obligation to stop the Warchief, just as the Alliance has no obligation to stop the High King. When Bolvar was leading the Alliance down questionable paths, not a single Alliance race stepped up to stop him until the player characters eventually brought proof that his advisor was Onyxia. Yet despite this, nobody complains that the Alliance should be held responsible for all the questionable actions Bolvar made.

3) "I don't agree with you" isn't reason enough to dethrone a king/warchief. The Alliance could have stopped him if they felt like it - Hell, they could have asked the Horde to help and they probably would have a LONG time before the actual Siege. They chose not to.

You know that the Horde leaders actually did just that and had a secret meeting to discuss Garrosh right? Garrosh was tipped off so he turned up and bullied them:

Garrosh's allies continue to express concern for the direction their Horde is heading in. While Garrosh refuses to see anyone, reflecting on his looming victory, Baine calls a small council to address the unsaid concerns brimming in the more moderate Horde's ranks. Garrosh interjects this gathering, having been tipped off to the meeting's location, and angrily lashes out at his allies for daring to question him. Garrosh ensures Baine and Hamuul that he is not Thrall, and writes Thrall off as a weak "pacifist," blaming his predecessor for the Horde's problems. He also backhands Kelantir as she attempts to interject, though quickly composes himself, and tells them that they are lucky their warchief is willing to overlook this deceit.

That's from his wowpedia page. So they were worried enough have the meeting that you said they just don't do but when Garrosh shows up they shit their pants and cower for the rest of Garrosh's reign?

[Friendlyimmolation]

Durotan and the frostwolf clan didn't, they could see it was wrong so why couldn't the others? Would it be acceptable to forgive Kil'Jaeden and Archimonde because they were manipulated by Sargeras? Should the Draenei forgive them for what they did because someone else manipulated them?

Uh, Durotan met the Draenei before as a child, and he still wanted to beat Velen's face in when Velen tried to say his religion was a lie. The other orc clans knew nothing about the Draenei other than paranoia which gul'dan capitalized on. The Frostwolf's still believed in the cause until much later.

Artha's gets no special consideration either. He was a shit. He started out doing what he thought was right and he was corrupted by, guess who? Lich King at the time, that's right, Ner'Zhul one of those Orc chieftians that drank the blood... So by your logic, Arthas did nothing wrong because he was corrupted by Ner'Zhul right?

maybe you should read more on Ner'zhul, last I checked he didn't drink the blood.

That's from his wowpedia page. So they were worried enough have the meeting that you said they just don't do but when Garrosh shows up they shit their pants and cower for the rest of Garrosh's reign?

because of something called politics.

[Jastall]

And for all her work, the Horde (Don't say "Just Garrosh", everybody else was all too eager to follow him) blew her city and all its citizens to hell with the WoW-equivalent of a nuke, so i can imagine Jaina being done with fighting for peace...

Again, while the nuke was overkill, there was no stab in the back. She made Theramore a valid military target by allowing the Alliance to use it as a base of operations for unprovoked strikes in the Barrens. From there, any of her ''fighting for peace'' ideals are idiotic naivety at best, bad faced lies at worst.

[Kallisto]

Sometimes something happens that restores my faith in humanity. Then I come upon another Jaina thread.

I know that a lot of people have zero empathy, and don't even have a clue what it is. But seriously, the amount of stupidity in this thread is overwhelming. Defending garrosh, just because you play horde, while hating Jaina? I don't even...Curious how you would act if everything you ever loved, worked for in your life, got obliterated in an instant by a piece of trash coward. Really wish, with all my heart, that it happens to every single garrosh lover. Have a fun life then, let's see how you "get over it" the next day, like apparently Jaina should

Well firstly I wouldn't claim to be an innocent peaceful, have no concept of neutrality and say I'm working for peace on one hand. While on the other order or allow my forces to attack said people I'm supposed to be peaceful towards.

It's not "Obliterated in an instant by a piece of trash coward." It's "Punch an orc in the face then run off crying how victimized you are when orc smash.". Garrosh had a ton of faults and yes in the story the horde were right to overthrow him. But attacking a city, killing nothing but military personel (Civilians had gone) with a major weapon is not one of those reasons. Hell the Mana Bomb (and for the forsaken the blight) are minor compared to what happens when you get a group of human sorcerers together who set entire zones on fire.