so hows frost now?

[Kaver]

BoS is not even bad on single target, on certain fight lengths it is close/better than Obliteration (2,5/4,5 minute fights for instance - Goroth hc is like this and there are lots of high BoS parses there).

I'm not saying BoS is bad. I'm just saying that people will most likely not play it if BoS = Obliteration, because Obliteration is easier to play. And people tend to play the easiest spec possible unless the more difficult spec gives a better dps output. Right now BoS will in general not provide more dps than Obliteration and therefore people will not play it.

My point is this: BoS needs to be better than Obliteration in all single target situations or it will die. 90% of the players will not use it if it is not a substantial dps increase.

[hellhamster]

I'm not saying BoS is bad. I'm just saying that people will most likely not play it if BoS = Obliteration, because Obliteration is easier to play. And people tend to play the easiest spec possible unless the more difficult spec gives a better dps output. Right now BoS will in general not provide more dps than Obliteration and therefore people will not play it.

My point is this: BoS needs to be better than Obliteration in all single target situations or it will die. 90% of the players will not use it if it is not a substantial dps increase.

What are you taking about? The level 100 talent choice is entirely situational.

First of all, if we all used x talent then y would die.

Secondly, BOS is the must have talent for cleaves, so it's definitely not useless.

[Schmilblick]

Still boring to play.

[Kaver]

What are you taking about? The level 100 talent choice is entirely situational.

First of all, if we all used x talent then y would die.

Secondly, BOS is the must have talent for cleaves, so it's definitely not useless.

Okay I will try Again:

1) I'm not saying BoS is useless

2) I'm just saying that Obliteration is better than BoS even in cleave fights. Look at the logs for heroic and mythic https://www.warcraftlogs.com/ranking...t&difficulty=4

3) And when an easy talent (obliteration) is better than a difficult talent (BoS), history shows that no one ("almost no one") will use the difficult talent (BoS).

4) For Demonic Inquisition BoS can possibly compete with Obliteration, but then the gameplay will become harder. So in the long run people will choose the easy talent (obliteration).

5) I have tried to explain it as pedagogically as possible

6) This patch (7.3) BoS will be for Frost what Dark Arbiter was for Unholy in 7.1.5.

[Kendros]

Okay I will try Again:

1) I'm not saying BoS is useless

2) I'm just saying that Obliteration is better than BoS even in cleave fights. Look at the logs for heroic and mythic https://www.warcraftlogs.com/ranking...t&difficulty=4

3) And when an easy talent (obliteration) is better than a difficult talent (BoS), history shows that no one ("almost no one") will use the difficult talent (BoS).

4) For Demonic Inquisition BoS can possibly compete with Obliteration, but then the gameplay will become harder. So in the long run people will choose the easy talent (obliteration).

5) I have tried to explain it as pedagogically as possible

6) This patch (7.3) BoS will be for Frost what Dark Arbiter was for Unholy in 7.1.5.

How is BoS a difficult talent you just pile up RP and ignore everything around you to just hit the boss and keep BoS up for as long as possible.

[RuneDK]

How is BoS a difficult talent you just pile up RP and ignore everything around you to just hit the boss and keep BoS up for as long as possible.

Compared to obliteration, bos is difficult to play.

[Deleted]

Unholy is getting a substential nerf via Crucible. They dont get the 3% buff because of lower weapon scaling. And i think frost will be close to the same level (probably a small buff). Should be a little closer.

[Baddok21]

Unholy is getting a substential nerf via Crucible. They dont get the 3% buff because of lower weapon scaling. And i think frost will be close to the same level (probably a small buff). Should be a little closer.

The biggest nerf to Unholy will be when Antorus is released and they gut T20 4pc and 2pc

[Deleted]

The biggest nerf to Unholy will be when Antorus is released and they gut T20 4pc and 2pc

Crucible will be a nerf on its own. Unholy doesnt scale well with weapon ilvl + trinket shadow dmg procs dont scale with weapon ilvl.

I dont think frost will overtake unholy. But unholy will be nerfed relative to other dps. Still very strong.

Can any1 sim how much (in % and absolute) 1 ilvl increase is for unholy, frost and one caster spec (e.g. balance druid)?

[Exotath]

What do you mean crucible will be a nerf to unholy? That statement makes no sense. It is a gain overall, it may not be as big of a gain overall like it is for other classes (need data) but its not a nerf.

Nerf implies loss of dmg. Unholy isn't going to be doing less damage than we are now once we get crucible.

[Kaver]

How is BoS a difficult talent you just pile up RP and ignore everything around you to just hit the boss and keep BoS up for as long as possible.

Oh god, why does this keep happening.... are you trolling..

If YOU choose to ignore everything around you and just focus on your rotation nothing is hard. But I'm making my statements based on players who are focused on boss mechanics.

BoS is a more difficult talent to use compared to Obliteration. And therefore, BoS should also provide a higher dps output compared to Obliteration. However, this is not the case currently. Look a the logs.

Remember everything is relative. You ask me how BoS is a difficult talent.

I have never said BoS is a difficult talent.

I have said that BoS is a difficult talent RELATIVELY COMPARED to obliteration.

I hope you know the difference.

[Raiz]

Oh god, why does this keep happening.... are you trolling..

If YOU choose to ignore everything around you and just focus on your rotation nothing is hard. But I'm making my statements based on players who are focused on boss mechanics.

BoS is a more difficult talent to use compared to Obliteration. And therefore, BoS should also provide a higher dps output compared to Obliteration. However, this is not the case currently. Look a the logs.

Remember everything is relative. You ask me how BoS is a difficult talent.

I have never said BoS is a difficult talent.

I have said that BoS is a difficult talent RELATIVELY COMPARED to obliteration.

I hope you know the difference.

Pretty sure he knows that. He just wants to know why you're making a big deal about BoS being more difficult than all the others specs when in truth it's not much more difficult really.
It's like listening to a toddler telling you the difference about something silly, you simply don't care because in the end it's the same.

[Deleted]

What do you mean crucible will be a nerf to unholy? That statement makes no sense. It is a gain overall, it may not be as big of a gain overall like it is for other classes (need data) but its not a nerf.

Nerf implies loss of dmg. Unholy isn't going to be doing less damage than we are now once we get crucible.

No, nerf is always relative to other dps. Why do frost DKs feel nerfed although they deal much more damage than in Nighthold? Why do arms warriors feel nerfed although they are already slightly higher than pre nerf?

It doesn't matter. If everyone does 1m and everyone gets a 10% buff, but unholy gets only a 7%, the perception will be always be it was a nerf - though you got a 7% buff.

PVE balancing is about viability. And viability is a combination of utility and dps, always in comparion to everyone else. I won't say it's dramatic. Unholy has some room left for a slight nerf. But crucible was supposed to be neutral to dps balance, unholy would have needed that 3% buff. It also makes frost slightly more viable.

Just done some sims and just added 15 ilvl to several weapons:
Unholy -> 2.05% dps gain
Frost -> 2.8% from ilvl alone -> if it is 4% (not the 1.3/1.23 from ptr) -> 6.9%. I think aura may go up from 23% to 28% (4.06% dps buff).

Just to compare some other specs:
Enhancement (3.05% from 15 ilvls alone +additional 2.7% buff(aura probably buffed from 10 to 13%) -> overall gain is 5.84%
Elemenal -> only 15 ilvls is 5.67% gain
Arms -> +5.74%
Sub rogue -> 2.38 (+1.5% buff=) -> 3.92%


I used the T20mythic profiles for that comparison. Further balancing is much more complicated (some specs scale good with haste/mastery crucible trait or dmg traits, others lack BIS trait in TOS (so they might gain much more dps via t3 crucible tree) or simply have stronger traits.

But the conclusion is: Not buffing unholy means they are okay with unholy not gaining as much as others.

[Kaver]

Pretty sure he knows that. He just wants to know why you're making a big deal about BoS being more difficult than all the others specs when in truth it's not much more difficult really.
It's like listening to a toddler telling you the difference about something silly, you simply don't care because in the end it's the same.

Ignorance is bliss.

BoS is not difficult. BoS it is more difficult than obliteration, but thats not what I'm "making a big deal" about.. I thought it was pretty clear for even the biggest simpleton.. but then you came along.

My point ("the big deal") which you so blatantly missed, is that no one is going to use BoS in 7.3/7.3.5 and I don't think that was the goal Blizzard wanted to achieve.

Unholy got 3 tier 100 talents which all are viable in different situations. Frost don't. BoS is not going to be used in any serious scenarios.

And why would you even comment on something you're equating with the babble of a toddler. Clearly you don't find it silly enough to ignore.

[Raiz]

Unholy got 3 tier 100 talents which all are viable in different situations. Frost don't. BoS is not going to be used in any serious scenarios.

What ? No. You see as much BoS players in a raid as you see Defile, and that's only for 1 fight. While BoS is used in almost any boss. And Soul Reaper ? Give me some logs where you see a legendary parse with it (hell, give me any parse, even a blue one). Any "serious" players wouldn't take defile or soul reaper.

[boz0]

Compared to obliteration, bos is difficult to play.

Actually, I've just switched from BoS to Obliteration and I find it "harder" to play Obli ... gotta train muscle memory again ^^

[hellhamster]

Actually, I've just switched from BoS to Obliteration and I find it "harder" to play Obli ... gotta train muscle memory again ^^

It's piss easy dude, dump some of your RP first if you're close to capping, Remorseless Winter, then hit Obliteration with either frost strike or rime, then alternate between obliterate and rime or frost strike.

Make sure to not fuck up by having 0 runes when you hit Obliteration, that's the only """""difficult""""" part.

[Deleted]

so when we hit Obliteration we need to close to capping...?

[hellhamster]

so when we hit Obliteration we need to close to capping...?

No? Re-read...

[Deleted]

Frost is great right now and is set for another 4% buff.


anyone struggling to get top half at least of dps meters , you are the problem, not the spec or class.

any viable spec you use is more than capable of outperforming the majority if you play it right.

stop making excuses.