Undead Galaronk and Chromatus are more powerful than Deathwing

[Terongor]

Well... The DK Leveling campaign when Ashbringer is tossed to Tirion proves that the Light can be a factor against Arthas which is why I mentioned it. I added a video that quite demonstrates well, Arthas does not like the Light. And again, as a raid encounter Lich King is finally struck by Tirion, he basically neutralises Arthas, then we get resurrected to do the killing blow. Gameplay wise it's us, lore wise it's always a band of heroes but the lore figures as the main contributors. Annoying when we do all the work ahaha.
The Forsaken is probably a bad choice though originally they were part of his hand. They can wield the light and it's been confirmed by blues that it pains their existence. But since they have removed themselves from Arthas you most likely will denounce that but Scourge in general suffer from the Light - I don't need to prove that. That entire thing is everywhere. And Scourge is of Arthas making... I can't see how his creations can be hurt and damaged by the Light and he's infallible.

Here's the video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K5TUdnCIi5c - 13.42 onwards to cut the crap and sorry couldn't find a better video.
Tirion: Arthas!
Lich King: What is this?
Tirion: Your end.
Lich King: Impossible... This... is not over.
*Leaves*

Tirion knows it's his weakness too. "Your end." seems a little too... cliche but he wasn't really lying either. Arthas legged it. If it wasn't so much of a threat, like you said, he would have minced Tirion and taken him with him. So yeah the Light is not Arthas friend and proven.
It might be why he took Bolvar, to be a major project to convert him and in his own mind, overcome a weakness... Whilst demoralising people like Dranosh was for the Horde.
With Bolvar getting Tirion, he didn't specifically go himself which be either something else or he knows the weakness because as Bolvar Fordragon was kicking butt as a Paladin against the very minions he now controls.
Arthas in fact did and even mentions that he wants Tirion in his army "The others were meaningless, you perhaps..." I think is close to what Arthas said.
He went for Tirion himself, probably filled on his own arrogance and desire to have a grand army (which mocks Tirion when he delivered us amazing bunch of heroes to turn into Death Knights for his army), with being a Paladin before and most likely presumed he was going to take no damage but clearly was wrong in choosing to come, mocking Tirion then Arthas basically fled. Maybe, he never came across the Light in that wholesome degree and wasn't exposed to that weakness and why he chose to appear too rather than arrogance.
But either way, it shows to me why he left Wrathgate's. The army on his doorstep wasn't as small as Light's Chapel and there were more Paladins there with 7th Legion and well the Horde too.

All in all, Tirion seems mighty attractive to both Lich Kings without really knowing why. It doesn't seem a direct personal choice except he's a powerful foe.

I never said that light couldn't hurt arthas LK I meant that it probably doesn't cause him as much damage as it would to a forsaken. It was said that most of the forces where killed by the forsaken blight wrath gate so probably not any that many paladin and light's hope chapel had about 180 forces remaining there and nearly all of them where either pala or priest so no. and you can easily say from wrath gate video there where max 200 horde and allys at the wrath gate and most them died. all of them at lights hopel chapel are atleast very strong veterans.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

Undead entities don't like Holy based attacks/energies.

[Evangeliste]

I never said that light couldn't hurt arthas LK I meant that it probably doesn't cause him as much damage as it would to a forsaken. It was said that most of the forces where killed by the forsaken blight wrath gate so probably not any that many paladin and light's hope chapel had about 180 forces remaining there and nearly all of them where either pala or priest so no. and you can easily say from wrath gate video there where max 200 horde and allys at the wrath gate and most them died. all of them at lights hopel chapel are atleast very strong veterans.

Um. Well you're previous quote is "there's no proof". They both don't like Holy.

And on numbers. Sorry but sadly no.

The Alliance lost almost 5000 men.[3]
^ The Shattering: Prelude to Cataclysm, chapter 8
Christie Golden novel, that came out in 2011? I think it would still stand. Unless Chronicles want to explain specifically which I doubt.

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Battle_of_..._the_Wrathgate.

It was a battle at Wrathgate, not really a skirmish like Light's Chapel. We don't know how many Horde but basing it on cinematic for in-game that probably cramped it down to deal with technology was optimistic.

Lich King retreated from those individuals at Light's Chapel, because the Light was something he recoiled from. I think facing that much Light wielders at Wrathgate with 7th Legion and Kor'kron, Paladins and Priests numbering most likely considerably more than those at Light's Chapel would most definitely make him turn his back. If he ran away from those 200 at Light's Chapel, he certainly was not going to show his face against 5k+.

[Terongor]

Um. Well you're previous quote is "there's no proof". They both don't like Holy.

And on numbers. Sorry but sadly no.

The Alliance lost almost 5000 men.[3]
^ The Shattering: Prelude to Cataclysm, chapter 8
Christie Golden novel, that came out in 2011? I think it would still stand. Unless Chronicles want to explain specifically which I doubt.

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Battle_of_..._the_Wrathgate.

It was a battle at Wrathgate, not really a skirmish like Light's Chapel. We don't know how many Horde but basing it on cinematic for in-game that probably cramped it down to deal with technology was optimistic.

Lich King retreated from those individuals at Light's Chapel, because the Light was something he recoiled from. I think facing that much Light wielders at Wrathgate with 7th Legion and Kor'kron, Paladins and Priests numbering most likely considerably more than those at Light's Chapel would most definitely make him turn his back. If he ran away from those 200 at Light's Chapel, he certainly was not going to show his face against 5k+.

I admit that haven't read prelude to cataclysm.So on that part I was wrong but we can safely say most of the horde and alliance forces were as queoted from wowpedia "nearly annihlated" out during putress attack with forsaken blight. Kor'kron forces consisted of only orcs, taurens and trolls at the wrath gate there was zero npc nor any during the cutscene to be seen as belf which at that point where only paladins from the horde. And LK showed his face against those 5k+ after his forces where wiped out by the horde and the alliance. This conversation just shows that LK can be killed outside ICC because he just runsaway from people outside ICC.

Also Scourge had 10k during the battle of lightshope chapel so 10 300 soldiers battle in wc universe is a battle not a skirmish so sorry.
Source : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K5TUdnCIi5c&t=313s You can read the numbers before it starts.

[Rafoel]

Ok, so first of all, the power level of numerous entities was changed significantly with the release of Chronicle, effectively retconning old in-game or in-book lore.

One of such entities is Galakrond.

His old iteration is incredibly powerful. He was a progenitor of all dragons, and indeed, Aspects were based on him. Aspects managed to defeat him AFTER being empowered DIRECTLY by Titans and fighting all together against him. Still, they were at disadvantage, and victory was kind of lucky. The undead version of Galakrond would be even stronger. In the many times mentioned quest Alextrasza describes his power by comparing his size to to Aspects. "His size alone" suggest thats it not size that ultimately decides about his power, yet being bigger than all Aspects combined already should suggest this power. With no additional information, every logically thinking reader would understand this phrase in such a way that Alexstrasza considers Galakrond to be at least as powerful as all the Aspects combined, and certainly much more powerful than a single Aspect.

All of that was retconned. Titans didn't empower the Aspects - the Keepers did - and they did so AFTER the soon-to-be-Aspects destroyed Galakrond, which makes Galakrond significantly weaker. Chronicle also described Galakrond as completely unrelated to the origin of Aspects, basically downgrading him to an ordinary proto-drake that gained unprecedented power.

Still, the Chronicle explicitly says that Aspects won against Galakrond only though cunning and intelligence, as they couldn't match his sheer power. It also says that Tyr, being the most powerful of Keepers, was no match for Galakrond.

Size is important in Warcraft universe. Deathwing was such a problem mainly because he was too big too fight against with conventional means. His famous armor was actualyl just elementium - same metal our armor was made of - and significantly weaker than metals we are dealing with now. It was just insanely thick, making swords or even cannons laughable. Alextrasza was able to fight on par with him, even being convinced she won. She didn't understand Deathwing's incredible durability though. From that we can deduce, that while his endurance was greatly boosted, his physical strength remained the same. And Galakrond's physical strength was certainly bigger than Deathwing's.

End Time clearly shows that Deathwing died impaling himself on Wyrmrest Temple. That means his own physical strength was enough to kill himself, which means Galakrond would be able to do the same. Could Deathwing outmaneuvered him and killed him from safe distance? Maybe. Maybe not. The better question is would he try to do it. Deathwing was completely mad. He didn't fight logically. Meanwhile Galakrond is described as extremely cunning and best hunter among proto-drakes. If Deathwing just launched himself at Galakrond, Galakrond would win.

And if you ever think that naturally evolved creature couldn't match titan-empowered being's power, I have one word for you - Sporemounds.

[LarryWithTheWeatherReport]

Ok, so first of all, the power level of numerous entities was changed significantly with the release of Chronicle, effectively retconning old in-game or in-book lore.

One of such entities is Galakrond.

His old iteration is incredibly powerful. He was a progenitor of all dragons, and indeed, Aspects were based on him. Aspects managed to defeat him AFTER being empowered DIRECTLY by Titans and fighting all together against him. Still, they were at disadvantage, and victory was kind of lucky. The undead version of Galakrond would be even stronger. In the many times mentioned quest Alextrasza describes his power by comparing his size to to Aspects. "His size alone" suggest thats it not size that ultimately decides about his power, yet being bigger than all Aspects combined already should suggest this power. With no additional information, every logically thinking reader would understand this phrase in such a way that Alexstrasza considers Galakrond to be at least as powerful as all the Aspects combined, and certainly much more powerful than a single Aspect.

All of that was retconned. Titans didn't empower the Aspects - the Keepers did - and they did so AFTER the soon-to-be-Aspects destroyed Galakrond, which makes Galakrond significantly weaker. Chronicle also described Galakrond as completely unrelated to the origin of Aspects, basically downgrading him to an ordinary proto-drake that gained unprecedented power.

Still, the Chronicle explicitly says that Aspects won against Galakrond only though cunning and intelligence, as they couldn't match his sheer power. It also says that Tyr, being the most powerful of Keepers, was no match for Galakrond.

Size is important in Warcraft universe. Deathwing was such a problem mainly because he was too big too fight against with conventional means. His famous armor was actualyl just elementium - same metal our armor was made of - and significantly weaker than metals we are dealing with now. It was just insanely thick, making swords or even cannons laughable. Alextrasza was able to fight on par with him, even being convinced she won. She didn't understand Deathwing's incredible durability though. From that we can deduce, that while his endurance was greatly boosted, his physical strength remained the same. And Galakrond's physical strength was certainly bigger than Deathwing's.

End Time clearly shows that Deathwing died impaling himself on Wyrmrest Temple. That means his own physical strength was enough to kill himself, which means Galakrond would be able to do the same. Could Deathwing outmaneuvered him and killed him from safe distance? Maybe. Maybe not. The better question is would he try to do it. Deathwing was completely mad. He didn't fight logically. Meanwhile Galakrond is described as extremely cunning and best hunter among proto-drakes. If Deathwing just launched himself at Galakrond, Galakrond would win.

And if you ever think that naturally evolved creature couldn't match titan-empowered being's power, I have one word for you - Sporemounds.

Very nice post man. Every point you made makes sense. Alextrasza fear not only his size but powers too. She may have mentioned size but the way it was written in the test kinda shows she also consider it to be extremely powerful. And yeah end times already showed everyone that Deathwing could die by physical means. It's just nobody was big and strong enough to do that to him. It was most likely Chromatus that did that to him during the end times since he was made yo eventually kill all the aspects. But it's also not out of the question for Galakrond to do that too. Although I didn't know the chronicle retconned that much for him. But at least he still died because of being choked to death, something his undead form won't have to worry about.

[Deleted]

I don't think so, Ragnaros's hammer in his true legged form would give Deathwing a run for his money.

Not at all... this is not even logical. Deathwing is massive compared to Ragnaros, and we defeated Ragnaros on our own without any assistance even in his legged form.

[Evangeliste]

Not at all... this is not even logical. Deathwing is massive compared to Ragnaros, and we defeated Ragnaros on our own without any assistance even in his legged form.

Deathwing became massive as after he was blasted with the Dragon Soul which would quite lend itself to he absorbed some of the power and basically started to unravel. Of course, we don't know what the Old Gods did to him because at the Madness of Deathwing, he's all tentacles which is pretty much signature Old God dribble, since he was spurned into madness by them.

It's hard to say comparison wise. But you do have some logic.

Old Gods = Titanic Keepers

The Aspects were made by Titanic Keepers... Old Gods played on Deathwing's mind and led him down his insane path, by his own intentions or being afflicted by them [which we can at least guess because as I said, the masses of tenetacles including his limbs becoming a massive crawled tenetacle].
Titanic Keepers went toe to toe with Ragnaros before, Tyr and Odyn had to tag-team him as said in the Paladin Artifact history. If power does get diminished as it's passed on then Deathwing in his original state [unblasted by Dragon Soul and unravelling] it's about right by being under Ragnaros simply because of Titanic Keepers being around for both. With the Dragon Soul blasting him it's a different ball-game, we don't know exactly what made him stronger because of the Old God influence. He could be on a same level of Raggy.
But you gotta remember Ragnaros was around with the Black Empire and an Elemental Lord, part of the primordial juju and it took a Prime Designate and his bud Titanic Keeper to best him, even then when we did it, we only subdued him to come back and it took an Archdruid [Eh, worked hard I guess], a Demigod [to which he was a product of an Ancient and a mother who now could have made the Prime Naaru and transcend even the Titanic Keepers, fuck] and (I forget the last one) including a band of heroes in his home turf to kill him 100%.

It gets hairy because you have no real list going Power level 1. Void Lords, 2. this, 3. that.

- - - Updated - - -

I admit that haven't read prelude to cataclysm.So on that part I was wrong but we can safely say most of the horde and alliance forces were as queoted from wowpedia "nearly annihlated" out during putress attack with forsaken blight. Kor'kron forces consisted of only orcs, taurens and trolls at the wrath gate there was zero npc nor any during the cutscene to be seen as belf which at that point where only paladins from the horde. And LK showed his face against those 5k+ after his forces where wiped out by the horde and the alliance. This conversation just shows that LK can be killed outside ICC because he just runsaway from people outside ICC.

Also Scourge had 10k during the battle of lightshope chapel so 10 300 soldiers battle in wc universe is a battle not a skirmish so sorry.
Source : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K5TUdnCIi5c&t=313s You can read the numbers before it starts.

We are talking about Lich King himself, like as in, Lich King fighting personally his enemies. When he does at Light's Chapel and the remaining forces, it is a skirmish - his own Scourge aren't going to attack the Lich King which cancels out 10k so 300 foes... And he arrived later into the fight. There was a lot of losses [and most likely barely dented the Scourge and Arthas would have just nicked the dead as usual but he left, so he couldn't] but the Ebon Blade did their job to diminish the forces there so when Lich King arrived, it will be smaller. Which is why Lich King taunted Morgraine with "their lives were meaningless"...
Compared to when he goes to the Wrathgate, he steps out right in front of the combined forces which if Alliance brought 5k, let's say Horde was 5k too since we know about rivalry. Anyway, those forces there are ready to meet him and none of them are exactly Lich King's allies. 10k foes. He has no Scourge friends there yet. So the difference is... 10k at Wrathgate against Lich King, 300 at Light's Chapel enemies. Even with the Ebon Blade going against him, most of them were basically sacrificed and those that lived like Morgraine and the PC, they did so after that battle because being part of the Ebon Blade, we run through Orgrimmar/Stormwind to join either Horde/Alliance, so their allegiance wouldn't change and he legged it before they could actively turn on him.

So yeah, I did read the numbers. He has no allies at Wrathgate compared to Light's Chapel.

Yeah the conversation is to say he was worried to fight that many, and nonetheless a fair chunk would wield the Light. And Paladins aren't the only ones to wield the Light... Priests can too. Which both Horde and Alliance can be. And have seen them, we see them in quests and had to run around one recently [yay, levelling...] with 7th Legion there is a Inquisitor High-something. Human fellow. I honestly don't remember the Kor'kron side of things even though I spent most of my time playing as Horde. Damn. I think other factions like Warsong may have joined the fray if I'm honest, it all gets fuzzy and hairy since you have other members join like an Undead, Belf and shizzle.

[Arkthugal]

Galakrond - live or dead - wouldn't be much of a challenge, even a normal Aspect should be able to defeat him, much less Deathwing.

I mean, it DID take all five Aspects to bring him down. And a Watcher, I believe.

[Deleted]

Deathwing became massive as after he was blasted with the Dragon Soul which would quite lend itself to he absorbed some of the power and basically started to unravel. Of course, we don't know what the Old Gods did to him because at the Madness of Deathwing, he's all tentacles which is pretty much signature Old God dribble, since he was spurned into madness by them.

It's hard to say comparison wise. But you do have some logic.

Old Gods = Titanic Keepers

The Aspects were made by Titanic Keepers... Old Gods played on Deathwing's mind and led him down his insane path, by his own intentions or being afflicted by them [which we can at least guess because as I said, the masses of tenetacles including his limbs becoming a massive crawled tenetacle].
Titanic Keepers went toe to toe with Ragnaros before, Tyr and Odyn had to tag-team him as said in the Paladin Artifact history. If power does get diminished as it's passed on then Deathwing in his original state [unblasted by Dragon Soul and unravelling] it's about right by being under Ragnaros simply because of Titanic Keepers being around for both. With the Dragon Soul blasting him it's a different ball-game, we don't know exactly what made him stronger because of the Old God influence. He could be on a same level of Raggy.
But you gotta remember Ragnaros was around with the Black Empire and an Elemental Lord, part of the primordial juju and it took a Prime Designate and his bud Titanic Keeper to best him, even then when we did it, we only subdued him to come back and it took an Archdruid [Eh, worked hard I guess], a Demigod [to which he was a product of an Ancient and a mother who now could have made the Prime Naaru and transcend even the Titanic Keepers, fuck] and (I forget the last one) including a band of heroes in his home turf to kill him 100%.

It gets hairy because you have no real list going Power level 1. Void Lords, 2. this, 3. that.

- - - Updated - - -

Firstly, I'm not sure Old Gods = Titanic Keepers. The titanic keepers were corrupted by the Old Gods, and it actually took a Titan to defeat Y'Shaarj. Notably, the 'titan-forged' managed to subdue the elemental lords, but were unable to even match a single Old God (and in my understanding all Old Gods played a role in Deathwing's maddening). That's besides the Dragon Soul itself (which may or may not have included Old Gods' power itself).

To defeat Deathwing, as I've already said, we did not only require the super-uber power of the Dragon Soul itself, but also the direct assistance of the aspects before they lost their powers.

To defeat Ragnaros, we only needed ourselves. The characters you mention did not help us defeat Ragnaros, but rather prevented him from escaping to the elemental plane. In any case, those characters are not even close in terms of power to the aspects combined.

Logically, then, considering how and what we needed to defeat both Deathwing and Ragnaros, it becomes clear to me that Deathwing would easily destroy Ragnaros, not to say all Elemental Lords together. An octopus of the Old Gods (Ozumat, kraken) almost weakened Neptulon by itself, and Neptulon was the strongest elemental lord.

A beefed up aspect (and beefed up by significant power) would be a wholy different matter.

[Evangeliste]

Firstly, I'm not sure Old Gods = Titanic Keepers. The titanic keepers were corrupted by the Old Gods, and it actually took a Titan to defeat Y'Shaarj. Notably, the 'titan-forged' managed to subdue the elemental lords, but were unable to even match a single Old God (and in my understanding all Old Gods played a role in Deathwing's maddening). That's besides the Dragon Soul itself (which may or may not have included Old Gods' power itself).

To defeat Deathwing, as I've already said, we did not only require the super-uber power of the Dragon Soul itself, but also the direct assistance of the aspects before they lost their powers.

To defeat Ragnaros, we only needed ourselves. The characters you mention did not help us defeat Ragnaros, but rather prevented him from escaping to the elemental plane. In any case, those characters are not even close in terms of power to the aspects combined.

Logically, then, considering how and what we needed to defeat both Deathwing and Ragnaros, it becomes clear to me that Deathwing would easily destroy Ragnaros, not to say all Elemental Lords together. An octopus of the Old Gods (Ozumat, kraken) almost weakened Neptulon by itself, and Neptulon was the strongest elemental lord.

A beefed up aspect (and beefed up by significant power) would be a wholy different matter.

Once upon a time, yeah the Titanic Keepers were under the Old Gods but with the introduction of Void Lords... the parallel changed so that Void Lords versus Titans, Old Gods versus Titanic Keepers. Old Gods got dropped from being this ultimate evil, to be pawns of something far worse that made Sargeras shit his pants and get to work.
If you notice the Titanic Keepers kept Yogg'Saron in check and were overpowered, not necessarily completely turned into a dribbling mess like Deathwing, the length of time may come to question but Yogg'Saron outdates Deathwing by a bit and being imprisoned too would technically be longer. With the Paladin Artifact history, we do get a window about Tyr and his obvious disappearance helps us understand that it was long before Humans were around, can't remember if they were Titanforged still but I think the Curse of Flesh had come because they do emerge to be taught about the secret of Tirisfall. And it overlaps with Galakrond biting his hand off so the Aspects come in, sadly it doesn't explain where Yogg'Saron is but I would say he was before the Aspects.
Anyway digressing, the Titanic Keepers still helped us in the fight (even if technically in gameplay you can kick them out but lore-wise they will 'help'). A Titan was capable of killing an Old God. A Titanic Keeper has yet to kill one including the PC's of Azeroth [since we have zero confirmation if C'Thun and Yogg'Saron are in fact point defacto like Y'sharrj - they are "dead" but their "dead" at the moment could be like how Archimonde was "dead" at Mount Hyjal so gotta wait till either Northrend 2.0 or World revamp 3.0 to see that]. So it really plays to strengths on that one.

Um, during the Ragnaros fight, they help us kill him we aiding us but their powers are still thrown into Ragnaros. Gameplay wise it seems that they don't, lore wise it is exactly that... It's always that. Every boss fight with an NPC is they are the main contributors and we just help subdue him while they do the work. It's sucks but that's how they portray it. It's annoying because the PC individually aren't meant to exist purposely as gameplay > lore always, which would mean that the whole Class Hall business with Legion won't be a canon event-stream. It's a constant shitstorm because what's in game doesn't have to be correct by lore but gameplay will always take a dump on lore if it's "cooler" than lore. Chronicles Vol. 3 will probably clear a ton of things up or Vol. 4 if there is another. But even then, it can take a hit because the game will be made to supersede it within reason or not sometimes.

It's why I said hairy because you have always external factors that play with it. And those factors aren't consistent either and ambiguous at best too.

I would agree that Deathwing juiced up on Dragon Soul would be another matter. Most likely he would kick Ragnaros with legs. But I'd rather sit on the fence and be happy they never came face to face.

[Terongor]

Deathwing became massive as after he was blasted with the Dragon Soul which would quite lend itself to he absorbed some of the power and basically started to unravel. Of course, we don't know what the Old Gods did to him because at the Madness of Deathwing, he's all tentacles which is pretty much signature Old God dribble, since he was spurned into madness by them.

It's hard to say comparison wise. But you do have some logic.

Old Gods = Titanic Keepers

The Aspects were made by Titanic Keepers... Old Gods played on Deathwing's mind and led him down his insane path, by his own intentions or being afflicted by them [which we can at least guess because as I said, the masses of tenetacles including his limbs becoming a massive crawled tenetacle].
Titanic Keepers went toe to toe with Ragnaros before, Tyr and Odyn had to tag-team him as said in the Paladin Artifact history. If power does get diminished as it's passed on then Deathwing in his original state [unblasted by Dragon Soul and unravelling] it's about right by being under Ragnaros simply because of Titanic Keepers being around for both. With the Dragon Soul blasting him it's a different ball-game, we don't know exactly what made him stronger because of the Old God influence. He could be on a same level of Raggy.
But you gotta remember Ragnaros was around with the Black Empire and an Elemental Lord, part of the primordial juju and it took a Prime Designate and his bud Titanic Keeper to best him, even then when we did it, we only subdued him to come back and it took an Archdruid [Eh, worked hard I guess], a Demigod [to which he was a product of an Ancient and a mother who now could have made the Prime Naaru and transcend even the Titanic Keepers, fuck] and (I forget the last one) including a band of heroes in his home turf to kill him 100%.

It gets hairy because you have no real list going Power level 1. Void Lords, 2. this, 3. that.

- - - Updated - - -

We are talking about Lich King himself, like as in, Lich King fighting personally his enemies. When he does at Light's Chapel and the remaining forces, it is a skirmish - his own Scourge aren't going to attack the Lich King which cancels out 10k so 300 foes... And he arrived later into the fight. There was a lot of losses [and most likely barely dented the Scourge and Arthas would have just nicked the dead as usual but he left, so he couldn't] but the Ebon Blade did their job to diminish the forces there so when Lich King arrived, it will be smaller. Which is why Lich King taunted Morgraine with "their lives were meaningless"...
Compared to when he goes to the Wrathgate, he steps out right in front of the combined forces which if Alliance brought 5k, let's say Horde was 5k too since we know about rivalry. Anyway, those forces there are ready to meet him and none of them are exactly Lich King's allies. 10k foes. He has no Scourge friends there yet. So the difference is... 10k at Wrathgate against Lich King, 300 at Light's Chapel enemies. Even with the Ebon Blade going against him, most of them were basically sacrificed and those that lived like Morgraine and the PC, they did so after that battle because being part of the Ebon Blade, we run through Orgrimmar/Stormwind to join either Horde/Alliance, so their allegiance wouldn't change and he legged it before they could actively turn on him.

So yeah, I did read the numbers. He has no allies at Wrathgate compared to Light's Chapel.

Yeah the conversation is to say he was worried to fight that many, and nonetheless a fair chunk would wield the Light. And Paladins aren't the only ones to wield the Light... Priests can too. Which both Horde and Alliance can be. And have seen them, we see them in quests and had to run around one recently [yay, levelling...] with 7th Legion there is a Inquisitor High-something. Human fellow. I honestly don't remember the Kor'kron side of things even though I spent most of my time playing as Horde. Damn. I think other factions like Warsong may have joined the fray if I'm honest, it all gets fuzzy and hairy since you have other members join like an Undead, Belf and shizzle.

First all the scourge ranks lost something 1k if played the light hope chapel till the end few times and always at the remaining forces reads nearly the same number and scourge loses something about 500 always which would be a big loss to get only about 100 dead. I do agree that when LK came to wrath gate there where alot light users on 7th legion side but the kor'kron always was made of mostly from the orcs and after that came the trolls and taurens which where fewier and there are few kor'kron which are undead and belf and I found only instance of both of them. Secondly kor'kron where warchiefs personal guard/elite force at that point so their healers would mostly be because of orcs the shamans there might have been few trolls priest at the wrath gate but first time we see belf kor'kron is at ICC so they might been to fill ranks because of the loses and nearly all forsaken priest you can find in-game are shadow priest which don't use light that much also first and only time we see forsaken kor'kron was during MoP at krasarang wilds so that they might have had during wrath gate belfs and forsaken but they probably where very rare.

[Deleted]

Guys maybe we got a new British Bulldog around? With less Lich King but more dragons!

[LarryWithTheWeatherReport]

Not at all... this is not even logical. Deathwing is massive compared to Ragnaros, and we defeated Ragnaros on our own without any assistance even in his legged form.

Yes we did, Malfurion, Cenarius, and some other druid came to back us up I think. And I don't disagree about Deathwing beating Ragnaros but in the Fireland, Big Rag is king there. He'll at least give Deathwing a hard fight. If Alex could put up a somewhat of a fight against Deathwing than Ragnaros in the firelands would put up a much better fight, perhaps even forcing Deathwing to retreat too.

Deathwing is much stronger than people give him credit for. He was capable of destroying the world in his final fight where he was severely wounded beforehand. Literally every Aspect comments on that power and if he finishes Cataclysm the world goes black.

More like he is overrated. He can die without the Dragon Soul. Everyone who played the endless time scenario already knows that. It's just nobody was big and strong enough to grab him and force him down a huge spire at the time that's why we got no other choice but to use the soul dragon on him. He flew and landed on the maelstrom and he was going to use his earth powers to fully destroy the world pillar this time which would then cause a sundering. Without the world pillar, he's just a very powerful dragon who can be defeated by many. Even that big papa Pit Lord in Argus could probably defeat him let along the Galakrond the strongest and biggest undead being ever or Chromatus who is even more durable than Sargeras himself.

[Steeldarkeagel]

It's just nobody was big and strong enough to grab him and force him down a huge spire at the time that's why we got no other choice but to use the soul dragon on him.

Why do you keep saying this? He was destroyed as his power eventually overcame his body and dragons that know they are dying go to the Dragonblight to die.

"Deathwing is shown as a burnt-out shell of his former self, his powers having at last destroyed him from within."
http://wowwiki.wikia.com/wiki/Deathwing

[Darklurker]

I'd be happy with Chromatus being a very important character in one expansion, if not the box art villain itself.

Edit: Preferably without being a slave to the old gods or any such shenanigans removing his own identity.

Pretty please

[Qualia]

His old iteration is incredibly powerful. He was a progenitor of all dragons, and indeed, Aspects were based on him. Aspects managed to defeat him AFTER being empowered DIRECTLY by Titans and fighting all together against him. Still, they were at disadvantage, and victory was kind of lucky.

All of that was retconned. Titans didn't empower the Aspects - the Keepers did - and they did so AFTER the soon-to-be-Aspects destroyed Galakrond, which makes Galakrond significantly weaker. Chronicle also described Galakrond as completely unrelated to the origin of Aspects, basically downgrading him to an ordinary proto-drake that gained unprecedented power.
<...>

What iteration are you talking about? As far as I know, the only time the battle between the Aspects and Galakrond was described before Chronicle was in "Dawn of the Aspects" and in that book, they defeated Galakrond before they were empowered. They were still just proto-drakes, if we are to compare to their Aspects selves would be like a normal human against a Wild God. Way weaker, less knowledgeable, dumber and less powerful. And the Titans didn't directly empower the Aspects there either, they did it through the Keepers - which is what happened in Chronicle as well. Galakrond was only described as the progenitor of the Aspects during WoTLK, but there wasn't any statement about their fights there - they already stated that it was just a ruse by "Dawn of the Aspects". Nothing was retconned by Chronicle unless you are referring to another iteration that I'm not aware of.

And no, to repeat myself, while size does matter in WC-verse, it isn't that important compared to power in general. We have so many "tiny" (in comparison to gigantic beings such as Galakrond) characters that can unleash massive destruction way more than he ever did. Galakrond is big, but that's all he had when it comes to 1v1. He doesn't have anything other than physical means (claws, fangs, breath) and durable hide (his weak points - eyes, throat, etc. were still being vulnerable though) to fight with. He is slow, or at least slow enough that he couldn't catch the Aspects when they were proto-drakes. If you fail to catch a proto-drake, no way you are going to touch an Aspect who is many times faster and stronger. Possessing no magic doesn't help Galakrond's case either.

I'm not even sure where you get "he was dangerous mainly because he was big" bit from. Deathwing was deadly because he was powerful and he had extremely high regenerative ability. Period. When Blizzard introduced Cata, they didn't say that Deathwing's size grew ten-fold, they said that his *power* did. Sure, Galakrond is physically stronger. So what? Deathwing or the Aspects will just stay away from him and blast him with breaths / magic. They aren't going to just launch themselves at him. Deathwing, as mad as he was, still smart enough to start running away the moment he got a glimpse of the Dragon Soul or retreat when he was injured after the fight against Alexstraza. He wasn't a berserker who only knew to charge ahead.

I mean, it DID take all five Aspects to bring him down. And a Watcher, I believe.

It took five proto-drakes to bring him down. Just that, no more, no less. Tyr was only involved in the penultimate battle. In the final battle, it was just five Aspects still being Proto-Drakes (they only became Aspects as we knew it after the fight) against him and his non-living drakes. They might have been intelligent proto-drakes, but they were still proto-drakes nonetheless. Proto-drakes are weaker, less powerful and less intelligent than dragons while dragons are also significantly lower than Aspects.

[LarryWithTheWeatherReport]

Why do you keep saying this? He was destroyed as his power eventually overcame his body and dragons that know they are dying go to the Dragonblight to die.

"Deathwing is shown as a burnt-out shell of his former self, his powers having at last destroyed him from within."
http://wowwiki.wikia.com/wiki/Deathwing

Deathwing caused the first mini sundering a.k.a the shattering because --> "Though believed dead by many, Deathwing returned in spectacular fashion after the fall of the Lich King. Entering Azeroth through Deepholm fractured the World Pillar, causing the Elemental Plane to start collapsing onto Azeroth. This Shattering reshaped the entire world of Azeroth and unleashed widespread destruction. As the world reeled, he appeared and brought flame to various regions of Azeroth.[9] His ultimate goal was to bring about the Hour of Twilight - the liberation of the Old Gods and the final of all life on Azeroth. Deathwing was aided by powerful allies also minions of his masters, such as the warped ogre-mage Cho'gall and his Twilight's Hammer cult, the powerful Elemental Lords Al'Akir and Ragnaros, and the Neferset tol'vir of Uldum."

Proof it's because of the world pillar and not his own power level that's doing it. During the final boss fight, he landed on the Maelstorm again and was going to destroy the World Pillar completely this time which would then cause a sundering. If a world doesn't have a world pillar than he's just anotha powerful dragon who would lose to the bigger predators like a zombie Galakrond and Chromatus who even has the potential to defeat Sargeras if he ever reaches full power. Without a world pillar, the argus Pit Lord, Lei Shen, Lich King, Archimonde, etc could defeat Deathwing with low to mid difficulty.

[Qualia]

and Chromatus who even has the potential to defeat Sargeras if he ever reaches full power.

It's pretty hard to take you serious with this. In fact, I'm sure we shouldn't, given your signature and all :P

[LarryWithTheWeatherReport]

It's pretty hard to take you serious with this. In fact, I'm sure we shouldn't, given your signature and all :P

Honestly I'm not even joking. Sargeras despise all his powers has been hurt before by mid tier beings like a Orc with Cenarius's Axe and a powerful Demon hunter. Assuming a Aspect is as powerful as one of them and we can do the math. Chromatus has never been harmed before, not even a scratch. Chromatus was deactivated so the Aspects had all the time and chance in the world to at least destroy, injure, or scratch Chromatus yet nothing worked. While Sargeras was scratched by a demon hunter/orc, both who might or might not even be on a aspects level of power. And I think that demon hunter did more than scratch Sargeras too. Basically Chromatus just needs a better battery which he would get eventually once he reaches full power. So I can see Chromatus tanking Sargeras's hit while Sargeras won't be able to tank his hits forever. And Chromatus is a few tiers above the two people that made Sargeras bleed so imagine how much more he would be able to hurt him. I think my signature is pretty accurate except for Hakkar since his blood powers is debatable depending on how much blood gets spill.