Conservatism IS the new counter-culture.

[Dug]

With no supporters, zero backing by any major mainstream media or news outlets, near total opposition even from the Kochs and not exactly on good terms with any institution. Just ask good old Skroe, he is the enemy of the establishment, of course he believes the establishment is good, and I guess by transitive properties of alliances you do too since anything that isn't Trump becomes good.

And yet, against all this opposition, they win elections. So much for no support. Also, fox news is a major mainstream media outlet. Don't care if you are not a fan or the disingenuous remarks of others about the network. That is the network for that "side". You can keep jumping through hoops trying to prove that PJW is right but it is not and will not be true, ever.

My world also isn't black and white. Its impossible to be 100% anti-establishment without going full on anarchist. That's the difference between people like me and these faux-anti people.

[Edge-]

Of all the wonders of the Age of Trump, my favorite has been the complete rebuke of their own past by those who've cast their lot with the Democratic party. The same people who once said "No Blood for Oil" wax longingly for either a military coup in the case of Sarah Silverman or hope for an overthrow of popular referendum's. It is a strange time to behold, just one of the many Wonders of the Age of Trump.

This is a brand new strawman you've got there, never seen this one before.

Who waxes longingly for another military coup? When did Sarah Silverman become a spokesperson for the Democratic party?

And when are you going to provide a shred of evidence that a deep state exists in the US as you continue to imply it does?

[Mittens]

You tell that to families on minimum wage. Any increase in income makes a world of difference.

Scapegoating deep ingrained problems by pinning it on immigrants is dumb. Also, I would tell this hypothetical family that the politicians that are fighting immigration are the same ones fucking them over even more that immigrants ever would.

[Theodarzna]

I think that's part of it. It is interesting to me though, that neither side really gets that going too far to left or right has yet to be shown to work out. Either culture starts to fray, (families units fall apart from divorce, because marriage actually takes work, etc, etc) or creativity/innovation is stifled from lack of any change at all. (which creates collapse from lack of adaptation to changing environment/social shifts)

It will be interesting to see how the pendulum swings this time.

I plainly don't see such a thing as a Middle Ground. Mostly because Centrism isn't just a humble pragmatic middle ground but often is an entrenched ideology, the ideology of the ruling class and power. Right now that would be a kind of Neo-Liberalism/Conservatism (Which IMHO is one contiguous ideology that needs a name). There are no in my estimation swinging of the pendulum but warring camps and armies struggling over a vast field.

I would say Elite Culture likes to enact social experiments and has a fetishization of its own ideas of change and will bring those changes, even if the consequences of those changes are devastating in other areas, either for people or the environment.

Marriage and its changes might be a good example. We've gutted the contractual aspect of marriage, on the belief that the important parts were the ceremony, words and pageantry. It turns out that actually no, the contract was the critical thing, the pageantry was irrelevant. But it all sounded good at the time.

[Theodarzna]

I see we stopped pretending to be "totes independent u guys"!

In America I think Independent just means not registered to a political party. Independent doesn't imply a specific ideological praxis.

[Shadowmelded]

Mm. The support for the EU among young "progressives"/socialists/liberals is a head-scratcher too. They claim to hate capitalism but love a neo-liberal institution dedicated to free market economics and exploits the ability to move around cheap labour, weakening the wage-negotiating power of workers and increasing competition in proletarian jobs.

It shouldn't be that much of a head-scratcher. The left has always been about international solidarity and the EU is a step towards that. They believe that the EU can be reformed to improve labour rights among other things. The real head-scratcher is why people who care about labour rights and increasing the minimum wage would consider voting conservative who have generally been against those things.

[Endus]

I think all of this is underscored with some conceptual viewpoint that the "counter-culture" are automatically the "good guys". Let's remember that in the 1920s, the Nazi Party was the "counter-culture" in Germany. That the uprising of the "counter-culture" in Iran led to the overthrow of the relatively progressive government and the installation of a repressive fundamentalist regime.

Not that counter-cultures are automatically bad, but if you need to justify that on objective metrics, not just on the principle of being against the grain.

Marriage and its changes might be a good example. We've gutted the contractual aspect of marriage, on the belief that the important parts were the ceremony, words and pageantry. It turns out that actually no, the contract was the critical thing, the pageantry was irrelevant. But it all sounded good at the time.

Oh, bullshit. Marriage hasn't suffered at all. It's just that people have realized it's largely unnecessary. It's better for a couple with major issues to get divorced than it is for them to remain stuck in a loveless marriage. Divorce is terrible, but it's better than the alternative. Like chopping off a gangrenous limb before the blood poisoning kills you..

And a big part of the drop in marriage rates is that marriage used to be a necessary step, particularly for women. Now, women can just live their lives, if they want. That's a good thing.

[Theodarzna]

My perspective on the middle is probably a bit different...

I do not see the middle as always "compromise"... but rather... sometimes the left has a good idea, sometimes the right, and sometimes a compromise (of the two) is more sound.

Most problems have a solution. Some solutions are long term, some are short term, some somewhere in-between. But usually, there is one "best" solution to a solvable problem. If we have all the information. The problem is that we normally do not have all the information, or the information we have is not "nice", or "pc" so we ignore it. (The James Damore document was the inconvenient information example, that gender has some sway on what interests people in the line of work they do... )

The issue, I think, is seeing everything from a "left or right" lens (of I feel this is the right answer because I am a liberal), as opposed to a data driven view "we need the best ideas based on our best observations/data", lens; Rational thought, backed by real world observation vs irrational party politics.

I think the only genuine "Middle" or best definition of a Moderate might be someone who can entertain and hold views that come from many camps, even opposed camps. But I'd prefer the term Syncreticist (Though I believe that is a theological term originally). In an older thread someone made about the virtues of moderation actually the article defined it as such, which would theoretically make me the moderate. But the thought of me as a moderate makes both my, and likely every other poster on this forums skin crawl. Thus I prefer the term syncreticist in that I do hold a lot of views and opinions from many camps, often wildly different camps and camps that are usually butting heads.

I think problems all have MANY solutions, not one. The lack of information does have a noticeable impact, as does the fact that information is sometimes not what one might wish to hear as was James Damore's case. The use of rational thought is admirable, though I doubt it's ever really used. But the power of ideology is something grand, and terrifying all the same.

I will absolutely agree that way too many people are willing to side with their "Tribe" politically simply because its "My Party Right or Wrong!" style thinking. Thus you get the "No Blood for Oil" protester of 10 years ago singing the praises of the CIA and hoping for a military coup. Thus you get the Working Class voter siding with the Koch brothers.

[Theodarzna]

I guess it helps when emotion is either on or off for some people... I can disassociate myself from any emotions at all, and chose a solution based solely on what I am observing (or the data shown).... or I can go crazy and unstable when it's something I feel should not/can not be, rationalized... like (neo)Nazis marching with Nazi slogans and Nazi Flags.

Problems have many solutions... but if you had perfect knowledge, there is only one "best" solution, where either no, or the least amount of people are impacted, and the most or all people benefit for a long span of time (or incidentally). By best I mean mathematically/statistically speaking... not the emotional "this is best for everyone".

I don't think we can have a best knowledge without it necessarily being intrinsically biased or subjective based on the individual or even group of individuals working out the solution. So you assemble a panel of geniuses from the best school in the world, but they are likely to be biased towards a class consciousness, and serve a distinct class interest. I also get into the trouble of "Doing the most good" as these sorts of questions are difficult when we don’t know what the future holds, when we don’t know all the consequences of our actions, and when we’re facing novel situations which in all honesty nearly every situation will be novel since no situation of the scale to justify such solution seeking would ever by a 1:1 match to a previous situation. My short of it is I don't think we can have perfect knowledge or even if we did, we cannot be certain we do in order to make these sorts of judgements.

Thus we just live with the crippling anxiety of uncertainty. I find the best solutions are found through syncreticisation and studying the past, but that is obviously biased because I am the one proposing it.

[JohnBrown1917]

I see we stopped pretending to be "totes independent u guys"!

It just means they are to the right of even the Republicans.

[PosPosPos]

It just means they are to the right of even the Republicans.

Assuming that it's possible to go further right of the wall they are already at the end of.

[Jastall]

Then work on your selective bias. Here's just one to get you started, Donald Trump. A billionaire businessman, reality TV star with global dealings is, no matter what you say, an elite. Doesn't really matter what you or anyone elses personal opinion on him is. They supported him as a means to an end but support all the same. Also their love over intelligence agencies depends entirely on who and what they're investigating. Same goes for the military. Alt-right (""conservatism"") are not counter-culture they simply want their elites in power, much like the other "side".

Seriously. Conservatism (or variants) in the US is in charge on Congress, the White House, will probably have the most influence over SCOTUS for the foreseeable future, and all these institutions that Theo blathers about only count as liberal if your only definition of Conservative is literally ''has the mindset of a hardline Prussian Junker from 1900'' or some shit. Cripes, the champion of these anti-establishment people is a New York billionaire who has surrounded himself with others of his kind and spent his entire life as a social climber to get into the very social circles he now bitches about to get voters.

Neither of the two ''sides'' in US politics are more pro or anti establishment than the other. They just posture as such when they don't feel that the establishment bends over backwards to suit their agenda.

[Thalassian Bob]

Scapegoating deep ingrained problems by pinning it on immigrants is dumb. Also, I would tell this hypothetical family that the politicians that are fighting immigration are the same ones fucking them over even more that immigrants ever would.

As I said, the Bank of England put out a research release showing that immigration has kept wages down (it's simple supply and demand).

But, this is not an either or thing, you can be against limitless immigration and want politicians to change labour conditions, see unions strengthened, public sector pay go up etc. Just because you're against one thing that is typically considered left-wing doesn't mean you support all right-wing positions.

[Mittens]

As I said, the Bank of England put out a research release showing that immigration has kept wages down (it's simple supply and demand).

But, this is not an either or nothing, you can be against limitless immigration and want politicians to change labour conditions, see unions strengthened, public sector pay go up etc. Just because you're against one thing that is typically considered left-wing doesn't mean you support all right-wing positions.

It is when the politicians are selling it as a package.

[Chinese Bootlickers]

Kinda-sorta right. You can't be the counterculture and the mainstream at the same time.

[Toogoodman]

But really, Deep State? Irma is a conspiracy. Harvey was made by Harp. Moon Landing was made in Hollywood.

You forgot 9/11 was an inside job, seems appropriate today

- - - Updated - - -

Considering the opposition is busy being in solidarity with the CIA, the IMF, the EU, the World Bank, most of the major businesses ect, I am not actually sure who is punk rock these days.

I mean, i would certainly agree that SJWs have tainted a ton of large corporations, the government, and the media, but here in the banking world, they don't have much of a presence. Also, Deep State? that's a little out there don't you think? I def think there are a ton of corrupt fuck politicians, but if the Deep State existed, the world would look a little different.

[Mayhem]

You tell that to families on minimum wage. Any increase in income makes a world of difference.

So since brexit how's that turning out for them?

[Endus]

I think problems all have MANY solutions, not one.

Anyone who's in any way informed about any issue knows that all problems have many "solutions". The problem is that those solutions inevitably have secondary effects, and their utility in solving the primary issue does not outweigh that.

For instance, take crime. One "solution" to issues like recidivism, or getting away with crimes due to lack of evidence, is just to straight-up kill everyone suspected of a crime. You might've killed your wife? BLAM. You got into a fight at a bar? Can't tell which of you started it, so BLAM, BLAM. Jaywalking? MOTHERFUCKING BLAM.

This is obviously a ridiculous solution that nobody would take seriously, because the secondary effects (the deaths of so many innocents) far outweighs any value of the solution itself in addressing the problem (since if everyone's dead, there's no way you can re-offend, nor get away with a crime you're suspected of).

It's those secondary effects that are key to most of these discussions, and conservatives are often so focused on the primary issue they won't consider secondary effects at all. Or if they do, their real motives become clear. Like when they say that they want to "stop illegal immigration, because breaking the law to get here is bad", and you propose a short and easy path to citizenship and amnesty for those already here, and that's suddenly not a solution. It is a solution to the problem, but it doesn't address their secondary purpose, which is to harass and punish immigrants, particularly Central/South American ones.

[Mayhem]

It shouldn't be that much of a head-scratcher. The left has always been about international solidarity and the EU is a step towards that. They believe that the EU can be reformed to improve labour rights among other things. The real head-scratcher is why people who care about labour rights and increasing the minimum wage would consider voting conservative who have generally been against those things.

Well said. /10char

[Toogoodman]

Imagining a punk rebel christian rock group, is probably one of the most humorous things I have imagined in some time

You mean, like Underoath?