Conservatism IS the new counter-culture.

[Theodarzna]

Minimum wage is related to workers rights. Those rights were eviscerated by conservatives. Stop talking nonsense

Flooding a country with unlimited labor and supporting outsourcing trade deals also destroys workers rights in equal measure. If anything the Min. Wage is almost a nothing issue compared to those tectonic esque forces. Once more even Democrats are tepid about really raising it, even if it would help.

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Sure I guess...in the sense that more often than not current conservatives are simply contrarian. I wish the idea that everything needs a left and right answer would go away, not every truth comes in a chocolate and vanilla variety.

If you do not necessarily fit into a camp people tend to just go crazy trying to talk to you. The Right today appears contrarian because it is unconventional and not neatly defined by old adages or trueisms.

When a truth comes outside of those boxes is often when someone is just simply labeled contrarian.

[Garnier Fructis]

Flooding a country with unlimited labor and supporting outsourcing trade deals also destroys workers rights in equal measure. If anything the Min. Wage is almost a nothing issue compared to those tectonic esque forces. Once more even Democrats are tepid about really raising it, even if it would help.

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If you do not necessarily fit into a camp people tend to just go crazy trying to talk to you. The Right today appears contrarian because it is unconventional and not neatly defined by old adages or trueisms.

When a truth comes outside of those boxes is often when someone is just simply labeled contrarian.

Alternatively, they appear contrarian because of bullshit like McConnell filibustering his own bill. Or because so many internet conservatives don't seem to have any actual policy aside from 'fuck the liberals.'

[xChurch]

If you do not necessarily fit into a camp people tend to just go crazy trying to talk to you. The Right today appears contrarian because it is unconventional and not neatly defined by old adages or trueisms.

When a truth comes outside of those boxes is often when someone is just simply labeled contrarian.

How do you get conservativism that isn't conventional and defined by old adages/truisms?

[Theodarzna]

Alternatively, they appear contrarian because of bullshit like McConnell filibustering his own bill. Or because so many internet conservatives don't seem to have any actual policy aside from 'fuck the liberals.'

I've never argued McConnell is anything other than a craven useless creature better replaced by my own pet tortoise and likely nobody would know the difference.

And the Internet is a tough place to gauge anything. I could also say the same for "Liberals" its just a bunch of feel good "Fuck Conservatives" but again we would just be going from our own biases or biting at one another.

The issue I was responding to however is that typically people with lots of differing policy positions and ideas drawn from very different camps, even opposed camps, are usually considered contrarian. Mostly because such individuals run contrary to what one might expect someone to be based on other positions. Say someone is a strong Nationalist or has a seemingly right-wing view on national sovereignty and the family, but then has a seemingly Left wing to radical green position on the environment, seemingly a Deep Ecologist almost? Because we lack labels for people who general operate outside of most conventional labels, we refer to those people as contrarian.

The other type of contrarian I will grant you might be nothing less than someone being a jerk online.

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How do you get conservativism that isn't conventional and defined by old adages/truisms?

Typically one might define Conservative or the Right in America as being a bunch of warhawks, cut taxes, pro-Whatever the Chamber of Commerce wants, and generally Anti-Environmentalism, Feminism, ect ect. Sort of the conventional Daily Show / Colbert Report viewers vision of a Republican voters nature about ten years ago.

If one changes those issues but maintains the philosophical framework that may have underpinned some of that, then one isn't what one might expect.

[xChurch]

Typically one might define Conservative or the Right in America as being a bunch of warhawks, cut taxes, pro-Whatever the Chamber of Commerce wants, and generally Anti-Environmentalism, Feminism, ect ect. Sort of the conventional Daily Show / Colbert Report viewers vision of a Republican voters nature about ten years ago.

If one changes those issues but maintains the philosophical framework that may have underpinned some of that, then one isn't what one might expect.

I doubt you'll see America conservativism become what you're talking about anytime soon and if they did, would they even still be conservatives at that point? Would kind of seem to me like another flavour of liberal thinking. Though I don't exactly know in which way you'd expect their views on what you listed to change.

[Theodarzna]

I doubt you'll see America conservativism become what you're talking about anytime soon and if they did, would they even still be conservatives at that point? Would kind of seem to me like another flavour of liberal thinking. Though I don't exactly know in which way you'd expect their views on what you listed to change.

In the media presentation no, I won't likely see it represented in Fox News. But I will see it represented in the common person and in the vast, largely still free and open, internet space where new ideas can come from a great and diverse range of voices.

The issue I think you're having is one of narrative framework. Your framework is that one is defined purely by policy planks, but I'd put it as less about that and more about ones philosophical approach. Fundamentally to be on the Right is IMHO to reject the framework of "Arc of History" or Progress itself. Policy positions are just policy positions, fungible and meaningless usually. Especially when we are talking about marginal culture war issues like Gay Marriage or Transgender Bathrooms. The question of "Should we have a massive bloated military budget and blow up every country on earth and remake the planet in our image" isn't really what defines someone as right-wing or even Conservative. Though to some extent remaking the world and ruling it is often an American Conservative establishment position it isn't a defining or all important statement. Specific Policy issues are temporal things, circumstantial and in the moment. Democrats and Liberals once were more dovish and didn't like war, hawkishness or the idea American Imperialism, but now many celebrate it and some even call for open conflicts with various states as just an example.

[xChurch]

In the media presentation no, I won't likely see it represented in Fox News. But I will see it represented in the common person and in the vast, largely still free and open, internet space where new ideas can come from a great and diverse range of voices.

The issue I think you're having is one of narrative framework. Your framework is that one is defined purely by policy planks, but I'd put it as less about that and more about ones philosophical approach. Fundamentally to be on the Right is IMHO to reject the framework of "Arc of History" or Progress itself. Policy positions are just policy positions, fungible and meaningless usually. Especially when we are talking about marginal culture war issues like Gay Marriage or Transgender Bathrooms. The question of "Should we have a massive bloated military budget and blow up every country on earth and remake the planet in our image" isn't really what defines someone as right-wing or even Conservative. Though to some extent remaking the world and ruling it is often an American Conservative establishment position it isn't a defining or all important statement. Specific Policy issues are temporal things, circumstantial and in the moment. Democrats and Liberals once were more dovish and didn't like war, hawkishness or the idea American Imperialism, but now many celebrate it and some even call for open conflicts with various states as just an example.

Do you think this way of thinking will actually take over the Republican party? So far it seems the more doveish version of conservativism is losing.

[Wyrt]

No, they think they are the real conservatives.

They are so far to the right that they think people like McCain and Graham are rinos (republican in name only).

He clearly thinks the alt-right movement is a counter culture, and technically he isn't wrong since they are against everyone who isn't one of them.

Well, he's not wrong, alt-reich is a counter culture. But alt-reich isn't conservatism, it's fascism.

[Theodarzna]

Do you think this way of thinking will actually take over the Republican party? So far it seems the more doveish version of conservativism is losing.

I think the Republican Party to a great extent will either self destruct or become irrelevant no matter what. If it suppresses the right that is more isolationist and the establishment seeks to crush opposition, then it simply proves that there is already a set policy prescription that does not grow from the masses. I.E. a confirmation of the Harvard study that we are effectively an oligarchy anyway.

The corruption of Trumps administration from its originally insularity during the campaign as articulated by Bannon, and him pivoting into being a "normal" president at least on foreign policy merely vindicates the New Right ect in their assessment that Republicans are corrupt and degenerate and need to be fought against as well. At the end of the day the GOP's base, its real base is either Trump's base or its a dying spongy figment of itself. Thus to borrow from Peter Hitchens and paraphrase, "Our two parties are just two corpses propped up against each other, held up by Rigor mortis."

The GOP will have to either stand for what its base stands for or face oblivion since the Democrats can offer what the GOP establishment sells only its more palatable to enough of the public. But then again the realistic difference between the GOP and DNC is largely negligible.

[Mittens]

How? The US is overwhelmingly conservative. Both our major political parties are conservatives.

Or by conservative do you mean the neo-nazi/alt-reich/KKK Trump supporters? Because those aren't conservatives, they're just fucking lunatics.

Lenin would be center right in Europe.

[Mormolyce]

The alt right is not conservative in any sense. And conservatives are not counter cultural, that's an oxymoron. So wrong on all counts.

In a sense white supremacists have been counter cultural since they were ousted from mainstream culture back when we decided being racist slaver pieces of shit wasn't a good thing several centuries ago.

Anyone else a fan of this guy?

Googled it, it's from one of the shitlords of course.

Forget which he is. Call me racist but they all look the same to me.

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Lenin would be center right in Europe.

Ha! Not even remotely, kiddo.

[Wyrt]

Lenin would be center right in Europe.

What the fuck?

[Mittens]

The alt right is not conservative in any sense. And conservatives are not counter cultural, that's an oxymoron. So wrong on all counts.

In a sense white supremacists have been counter cultural since they were ousted from mainstream culture back when we decided being racist slaver pieces of shit wasn't a good thing several centuries ago.



Googled it, it's from one of the shitlords of course.

Forget which he is. Call me racist but they all look the same to me.

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Ha! Not even remotely, kiddo.

That's the joke. It's meant to mock people that say America has no left and only in Europe, you can find TRUE leftists. Now, I hate you because you made me explain that.

[Wyrt]

That's the joke. It's meant to mock people that say America has no left and only in Europe, you can find TRUE leftists. Now, I hate you because you made me explain that.

The US has a left, it just has no real power. Bernie Sanders is left and that's about it for people in power on a national level.

[Deletedaccount1]

Scott Alexander wrote a blog post about this a few years ago. I think he is generally correct but calling right-wing views in general the new counter-culture is more accurate. Being pro-free market is an unconventional position among millennials as is being traditionalist/politically religious or being a nativist but these views don't all coincide.

[Theodarzna]

Scott Alexander wrote a blog post about this a few years ago. I think he is generally correct but calling right-wing views in general the new counter-culture is more accurate. Being pro-free market is an unconventional position among millennials as is being traditionalist/politically religious or being a nativist but these views don't all coincide.

Scott Alexander is sometimes verging on prophet status. There is so much to unpack there.

The most intriguing thing for me in that post was the idea that the Right, even the Far-Right really isn't scary. Weirdly, as a woman, I don't feel any sort of anxiety towards the often repugnant levels of misogyny one might see from MGTOW's and people like that. I can happily engage with them knowing full well that unless they outright killed me, I'd be considered a stunning and brave hero for standing up to them after the confrontation. I know that as bad as any mean nasty Alt-Right Neo-Nazi might be, short of trying to physically mutilate or kill me, anything he or she does will land that person instantly in jail and I myself a hero with a national tv invitations to tell my story. I know if it ever came to any conflict between me and say the Alt-Right, then short of them killing me instantly I would have everyone in the world on my side, and the possibility of it ending in any way other than with them in jail and me a hero who gets praised for her bravery in confronting them is practically zero. On the other hand, I feel massively threatened from the Left, since the few times I got in a fight with them ended with me getting harassment and feeling like everyone was on their side and I was totally alone. Alexander's point here is spot on. I think its simply more comforting or enjoyable to be on the Right, than the Left. The Right lacks the cultural power to really hurt someone and if they do they won't be celebrated for it. The Left on the other hand has that kind of "Can get away with anything" card.

Second, in an age when these ideas were seen as dead, be they traditionalism, religiosity, nativism, nationalism, ect, they become the refuge of the disaffected since the Left has been largely (in American especially) bought out and made into a hollow shell of itself.

[Doctor Amadeus]

PJW - Is Alex Jones little basement dwelling True believer along with all the other insomniac paranoid alt- right white supremacist. The guy is an idiot. I'm pretty fucking sure almost every agrees with almost always the opposite is correct. Lol

[Mormolyce]

That's the joke. It's meant to mock people that say America has no left and only in Europe, you can find TRUE leftists. Now, I hate you because you made me explain that.

Okay in that case I'm going to have to invoke Poe's Law.

[Thalassian Bob]

Minimum wage is related to workers rights. Those rights were eviscerated by conservatives. Stop talking nonsense

Why is it so hard to consider that both limitless low-skilled migration and the right-wing erosion of workers' rights are responsible for the worsening of the average worker's lot? It's not necessarily an either/or situation.

It's worth pointing out that Britain's joining of the proto-EU was done under Thatcher. And now it's the Left-of-Centre that is fighting hardest to keep us in it.

[Endus]

Why is it so hard to consider that both limitless low-skilled migration and the right-wing erosion of workers' rights are responsible for the worsening of the average worker's lot? It's not necessarily an either/or situation.

It's worth pointing out that Britain's joining of the proto-EU was done under Thatcher. And now it's the Left-of-Centre that is fighting hardest to keep us in it.

There's also the inconvenient fact that unemployment isn't actually all that high, right now, in the USA, meaning that there's no real dearth of jobs in the first place. Unemployment's at 4.4%, and a healthy rate is 4.5-6%; https://www.federalreserve.gov/faqs/economy_14424.htm

So it's actually on the lower end of that; not a problem situation at all in the first place. It's kind of like trying to blame a crime wave on the immigrants, when crime's been going downhill steadily and is at relatively low rates already.