Should mythic raiding going forward be tuned to be as easy as Emerald nightmare was?

[BiggestNoob]

It's fine for it to stay difficult. What Blizzard has utterly failed to do consistently is:

1. Implement fights with mechanics that do get easier with more gear. Soaks don't really.
2. Let people overgear the content.

If it's going to continue being shit design with almost all player power gains in an artifact weapon and set bonuses / trinkets so gear doesn't really matter, then yeah, nobody wants to spend all their time doing shitty content.

[Marrilaife]

The fact that there is unbeaten content for most of the population is good for the game. It might be a struggle if you raid 5 days a week and you can't kill KJ by now, but I mean come on, not everyone should be able to do everything.

And why is it exactly good? "Not everyone should be able", like how much should not be able? 90%? 99%? 99.9%? 99.99%? No one? And what's the point of playing the game is you can't finish it?

And to put it in perspective, probably only like 2% of the total wow population even steps into mythic raiding at all. And 70% of these guilds will never go past early easy bosses anyway, due to lack of player interest, skill, dedication, attendance and other factors.

From my own perspective, I think it felt more smooth when we had "progressive buffs" like in ICC or Dragon Soul than "random power jumps" like 7.2 traits, now crucible or random arbitrary nerf waves to bosses. It still meant the best players killed the boss the earliest when it was the hardest, it still meant that flaky players dropped off before they even reached the end of the journey, but those who stuck through mostly managed to see the ending. And still people who killed it earlier got more mounts and higher rank / prestige, while they just had quicker farm reclears after.

And from Blizzard perspective the 2% of the playerbase that is mythic raiding audience might be small, but as long as mythic raids are still developed and put into the game their question should be, what's the higher risk, that a mythic raider will finish content "too fast" and unsub "out of boredom" or that a mythic raider will find the content out of their reach and unsub because they "cba banging head against the wall". It's a fine line.

Bosses like KJ that take from 600 to what I heard even 1,7k pulls to kill would be fine as a "mythic secret boss" or "optional challenge", but we didn't get one since MOP and from what I heard Raden wasn't even cutting edge hard (didn't raid after 1st tier in MOP so can't say from my own experience). Tbh for a short raid like TOS an optional super duper hard challenge mode boss would make sense if they wanted to prolong the content.

I still miss longer, 12-14 bosses raids, if the wipes people spend on KJ were split between 3 different bosses, content would last the same amount of time and people wouldn't feel so much fatigue.

Or things like Yogg - beating him with progressively less keepers was adding extra layers of challenge & content guilds could opt into trying or completely skipping without feeling completely locked out of the final boss.

The problem I see is the gap of skill / dedication between the "top 1%" and the "top 0.01%" is too big and the content will never satisfy - will either be too hard for the "wider" group or a "joke" for the top elite group. In both cases, still out of reach for 99% of the playerbase.

[Wilfire]

EN wasn't "easy". EN was on par with previous mythic and heroic raids. People who voted no either don't raid or forgot that WoW is just a fucking game. There's no need to suffer through bullshit encounters like mistress, avatar and KJ.

[Alvito]

NH wiped out a lot of guilds that would have put in good work on ToS. After all the soaking, repeated type of mechanics, 1 person screws up you wipe mechanics and just dog shit RNG of some of them say mythic Avatar where you might have to soak and be right in the path of a tornado, people have given up. Look at the guilds that have thrown in the towel on raiding after they got their KJ kill too. Of the few that have it not many have put in much more work on him since killing him isn't worth the time spent. Titanforging is a part of this problem too. You can easily split raid kill him in heroic a dozen times before your raid might get their 2nd KJ mythic kill. In that time you are going to see plenty of 950 titanforged gear. Sprinkle in what you can get from mythic + dungeons and the reasons to rekill lower even more. The cruicible might stoke the fires a bit, but the burn out is real and hitting ever server it seems.

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EN wasn't "easy". EN was on par with previous mythic and heroic raids. People who voted no either don't raid or forgot that WoW is just a fucking game. There's no need to suffer through bullshit encounters like mistress, avatar and KJ.

EN was super easy. Now if people didn't out gear it before it opened that would have been another story. Sadly we will never know for sure. Scaling and how to counter raids over powering things has been one of the bigger issues in Legion.

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It's fine for it to stay difficult. What Blizzard has utterly failed to do consistently is:

1. Implement fights with mechanics that do get easier with more gear. Soaks don't really.
2. Let people overgear the content.

If it's going to continue being shit design with almost all player power gains in an artifact weapon and set bonuses / trinkets so gear doesn't really matter, then yeah, nobody wants to spend all their time doing shitty content.

The same type of mechanics handled by the same classes or people gets old. Our raid has lost a small army of hunters, mages, rogues and DH because being the soak bitch every fight gets old. Don't get me wrong I like doing the extra things when they are needed, normally you don't need 1/2 your raid to do it every fight though.

[Hctaz]

I'd want something like NH level post-change on Augur/Spellblade. I think the difficulty was in a really weird spot in those fights pre-nerf, but I enjoyed Elisande and Guldan. I don't think those fights were too wonky. They were hard because they were hard, not because it was a huge clusterfuck mess like Augur and Spellblade were.

ToS is not a good raid difficulty wise. There are WAY too many fights that are made much easier by stacking classes.

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2. Let people overgear the content.

If it's going to continue being shit design with almost all player power gains in an artifact weapon and set bonuses / trinkets so gear doesn't really matter, then yeah, nobody wants to spend all their time doing shitty content.

Honestly this. They gear the raid around titanforging now and they just shouldn't. Look, we all know the top 5 guilds are going to grind their asses off really hard and come into the raid day one that Mythic unlocks and be wearing gear 5-6 item levels higher than what the raid even drops. They're going to go batshit crazy. Don't punish the rest of us who gear up normally. I mean, my raid is just now about as geared as Method was when they killed KJ on the third week, and we're like... what 4 months in now? It took us 4 months and 7/9M to gear up as much as Method did in a week or two of mythic. That's just excessive. The game doesn't need to be balanced around the top 5 guilds in the world. Balance it so that the gear makes sense or just remove titanforging so you don't have to have these raids balanced around people having higher item level than is possible to get in the raid without titanforge.

[Deleted]

It should be tuned to ~10-20% of mythic guilds can kill the final boss before the next tier is out, with a gradual slope of inreasing difficulty leading up throughout the instance. a mythic guild in this case being any guild that can kill the first boss before the tier is over.

[azurrei]

Mythic difficulty seems perfect to me they should not change a thing. I don't raid Mythic because I have zero desire to do organized raiding these days and recognize that Mythic is just not for me...anyone who thinks Mythic is too hard has another option - it is called Heroic and is made just for you!

[Sithalos]

To everyone that voted (and will vote) "no": show your helya, gul'dan and kj mythic kills proof or SHUT THE FUCK UP!

Flawless logic you've got there. I expect nothing less from someone on these forums.

[Palizangetsu]

To everyone that voted (and will vote) "no": show your helya, gul'dan and kj mythic kills proof or SHUT THE FUCK UP!

I don't understand why I have to be a mythic raider to agree that the content should be left difficult? Just because I feel content should be left difficult doesn't imply I should be able to do it. I actually like having really difficult content in the game. I like content difficult that I can't complete it especially since I don't have the time to do it anyways heroic is good enough for me and is pretty easy as it is.

[Lartok]

To everyone that voted (and will vote) "no": show your helya, gul'dan and kj mythic kills proof or SHUT THE FUCK UP!

So just because I haven't achieved something I must want it to be easier?
"I can't dunk a basketball so I think the NBA should lower the hoops to 5ft."

[Better]

I don't understand why I have to be a mythic raider to agree that the content should be left difficult? Just because I feel content should be left difficult doesn't imply I should be able to do it. I actually like having really difficult content in the game. I like content difficult that I can't complete it especially since I don't have the time to do it anyways heroic is good enough for me and is pretty easy as it is.

If you don't know how difficult the content is, then how do you know the current level of difficulty is correct? Just having content harder than you can do could be a wild range of difficulty, reaching all the way to borderline impossibility.

[Aggrophobic]

The difficulty in ToS is not the main issue.
It's sloppy design and mechanics that just aren't fun to progress on.

[Lartok]

If you don't know how difficult the content is, then how do you know the current level of difficulty is correct? Just having content harder than you can do could be a wild range of difficulty, reaching all the way to borderline impossibility.

Well in this case we know it's not impossible because people have done it.

[xcitng]

If you want less challenge, do the other 3 difficulties.

[Temp name]

Raids should have better difficulty progression than ToS does and raid tiers should have more than 9 bosses.

I'm fine with 9 bosses as long as they're fun. ToS is not fun.

[Moshots]

It's probably safer to say it won't be tuned as ridiculously as KJ unless the devs want to keep getting roasted by players for shitty encounter design

they have already said they are basically happy with Leaving a boss hard then nerfing it 3-4 weeks later after world first guilds..

With that said they have also said that they were not happy with KJ level difficulty and were more happy with Guldan level bosses.

[Kikazz]

To everyone that voted (and will vote) "no": show your helya, gul'dan and kj mythic kills proof or SHUT THE FUCK UP!

so because i voted no?

i need to show my achi for completing the content?

shall i also bring up my last few years of all heroic content cleared at current as well?

the game being hard is good, it prolongs the game.

the people who push through it and complete it all in a few weeks are in a league of there own. not everyone can compete or put that much time in to complete something faster.

so what your saying is because i cant commit the time i should pass up and not play it until blizz nerfs the "Current Content" to where i should be able to clear it at the same speed?

aoh and FYI im currently clearing mythic content, 4/9 not top end but im enjoying the difficulty of it as it is, if it was any easier yes i would have completed it by now, im liking the challenge like a lot of people are.

[Deleted]

Will Crucible really nerf KJ, though? You'll still have 1shotting orbs. Still having gateway clicking to not get knocked off. Still having tank debuffs to dispel. Etc. Will smooth out damage requirements, but still gotta do mechanics flawlessly.

I'm fine with NH level difficulty. Think ToS has been a bit extreme, but we're still going ahead. My question really is though, and I'd aim this to the top 30-100, do you think the KJ state is healthy now for the game? Have you noticed recruitment issues/attendance etc, or have players risen to the challenge? That's really the point of this topic; guilds sub 100 obviously matter for mythic participation, but it's those guilds outside the top 30 that make up the real drivers and feed the players up. Posted stats 2 weeks ago that showed a 61% drop off of guilds who killed Gul'dan to those who killed KJ. A quick look at figures show that it's still 61-63~% drop off now for those killing GD to KJ timewise in comparison.

The bit I'm curious of is Blizzard's 'goal' if you will that 500 guilds would have cleared the last boss before releasing the new one. We'll be here for a year at this rate

[klaps_05]

With Emerald Nightmare I would say it was a mechanic problem rather than tuning. Xavius didnt offer much difference in mechanics - he should have been something like Sha of Fear on steroids.

On Mythic, all bosses in the upper tier of the raid should be tuned like Maiden/KJ - one fuck up and its over. Peoples mechanical skill (rotations execution) is way too high, so the only way to challenge them is with 1shot or extremely complex mechanics.

Given that they finally used a few kill mechanics in a raid, I would like to see everything that can be cheesed by a class via block/bubble/turtle to be turned into kill mechanics instead of dmg, thus balancing out a bit the class stacking.

[kamuimac]

It seems like after 3 months only 40ish guilds have killed Kil'Jaeden on mythic which is absurdly low.

For the health of the game and the health of raiding and most of our sanities, would you like mythic raiding to be tuned easier and closer to Emerald Nightmare difficulty?

Honestly, the world first race while still exciting for a few fans and the ones involved, should not be considered when creating the difficulty of raids. Attendance is dropping because mythic TOV, NH and now ToS were tuned very tight.

EN created a false hope in borderline mythic players, but I don't think that's a bad thing. Considering WoW is over 12 years old, creating mythic to be tuned to Emerald Nightmare's level will only be good for the game and the raiding community.

no - devs should tune it even harder to kill of any interest with mythic raids and finally remove this usless mode from game - next to nobody uses it anyway so no loss and they could spend resources they waste on mythic on adding 1-2 more dungeons per expansion