The Judgement skill needs some buffing

[Venziir]

Yeah. As much as I often tell people to remove their nostalgia goggles when it comes to Vanilla/TBC. I used to actually have a lot of fun seal twisting. Though these changes were always made because the average player couldn't do it right.

I played Ret through TBC, with a Prot Pally and Holy Pally in our 25man. The fact Judgement and Crusader Strike worked in a way where it refreshed ANY judgments already on the target, all 3 of us judged the Boss with different Seals and I was the refresher.

It was fun and made the class really rather unique. Sure, it wasn't exactly overly efficient and half the seals were useless and such, but it was fun!

[Shelly]

From a PvE raiding standpoint I will say this.

To keep this model in terms of mechanic the following needs to happen.

-Lower CD of Judgment
-Buff it's damage
-Buff mastery. (Have yet to see how the 7.3 mastery change will play out.)

Greater Judgment talent needs to have more impact like Titanic Might does.

So I will say you are right spot on for the most part but it needs lots of love right now.

1) Get more haste. You want at least 25%.

2) Get more mastery.

3) Get more mastery.

Once you get to 25% or so haste and with 50%+ mastery Ret has a very simple and steady rotation and your judgment starts critting for over 1-million even without wings.

To run down the timing:

0 - Blade of wrath / Divine Hammer
1 - Crusader Strike / Zeal
2 - Crusader Strike / Zeal
3 - Judgement
4 - TV / DS
5 - CS / Zeal
6 - TV / DS
7 - BoW / DH
8 - CS / Zeal
9 - TV / DS
10 - CS / Zeal
11 - BoW / DH
12 - CS / Zeal
13 - Judgement

And on and on.

More fun if you roll with divine purpose.

You should expect a drop off in judgment of roughly 3 to 4 seconds during which time you can build back up to 5 holy power, drop judgment and start things rolling once again. Getting the 4 piece T20 makes that even easier.

[Super Kami Dende]

It was fun and made the class really rather unique. Sure, it wasn't exactly overly efficient and half the seals were useless and such, but it was fun!

It made for some interesting combos. In T6 we had a Smite Priest. Basically a Holy Priest that just spammed smite and Holy fire as DPS. Since enemies had no Holy power resistance and with Conviction Aura + Judgment of the Crusader both buffing Holy Damage. It made for some pretty insane damage. It was also nice on Progression as he could help us push DPS and also help cover some healing if the fight got a bit tougher. Was a pretty awesome "support" type role actually.

[Nurvus]

I strongly disagree about increasing the judgment cooldown, check the fury warrior forums from MoP to see the strong criticisms with that style of play (even worse for ret because of the lack of synergy between a holy power resource and a debuff style of play). That being said, I like the idea of the cooldown being shorter or reset when the judged target dies, it sucks to judge a target only for someone to have a massive execute and you are left waiting 9 seconds to do damage.

I understand what you mean and I agree that simply increasing Judgment cooldown + power would not be enough.
I am just saying that between just removing the downtime entirely vs trying to make some sort of downtime work, I prefer the second one.
I think Masteries that simply grant a bland passive damage bonus are a wasted opportunity.

Or perhaps it could be exactly like the OP suggests, and then Greater Judgment could be changed to more power & more downtime, so that everyone's happy.

[Reith]

I understand what you mean and I agree that simply increasing Judgment cooldown + power would not be enough.
I am just saying that between just removing the downtime entirely vs trying to make some sort of downtime work, I prefer the second one.
I think Masteries that simply grant a bland passive damage bonus are a wasted opportunity.

Or perhaps it could be exactly like the OP suggests, and then Greater Judgment could be changed to more power & more downtime, so that everyone's happy.

Sword of Light was exactly that: a passive damage buff. The interesting parts came in talent choices and maximizing DPS by utilizing Seals effectively while also using your utility (which we had more of before) as well as some healing if things got a bit rough (also more effective before and less restricted).

[Lady Velvet]

Wish they'd give us the old Judgement animation while they're at it...

[Ulthane]

Wish they'd give us the old Judgement animation while they're at it...

The old Mass Judgment talent had a cool updated animation for the old Judgment. Looked similar to current Hammer of Justice.

What they need to do is give us that Animation and then use the new Judgment animation for Hammer of Wrath because we need that back.

[appsmart234]

It's simply an irregularity whose damage has to be OP to be worth using because you will have to delay it

[SilenceRedo]

I'm not talking about 20 sec cooldown with 8 duration like Arms baseline.
But a couple seconds downtime in end gear wouldn't that bad and allow a higher skill cap - you can use Execution Sentence and generators during downtime, and focus on finishers during uptime.

But seems like you missed the part where I mention massively buffed Mastery.

My preference has nothing to do with wanting more or less viability.
I simply dislike trivialization.

NO. Downtime is the worst thing in the world for us. Ret has always being a reactive at the speed of light spec. If you want downtime and a metodic gameplay, this is not your spec despite the fact that plague called dowtime is being annoying us for most of Legion. Ret is all about spectacular chain of procs vertiginous fun. While an insane RNG spec like WoD Ret isn't the right answer, I rather have that than what we have here in Legion that even at the haste cap you can still suffer some moments of downtime.

It took me a long while to get to accept Legion's ret and I enjoy it nowdays, but I miss my speed of light Ret, and I'm not talking about the sprint.

[Reith]

What's hilarious is the secondary relic traits boost crit/haste/vers much more directly than mastery, so mastery probably needs another buff.

[GamerDude40]

Yea the Judgement CD is BS. And yes increase the range. At lower levels i need to be able to pull asap after im done with a kill to keep the grind flowing at a fast pace.

[Thundering]

Am I the only one, that misses the original Judgment? The one that would trigger whatever secondary ability of your seal? I honestly miss that old school seal 'n judgment system of yore.

I do miss it too , i cant wait for vanilla.

[Faesroll]

Yea the Judgement CD is BS. And yes increase the range. At lower levels i need to be able to pull asap after im done with a kill to keep the grind flowing at a fast pace.

You do realize this is a thread from over a year ago right?

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I do miss it too , i cant wait for vanilla.

Enjoy auto attacking.

[Thundering]

You do realize this is a thread from over a year ago right?

- - - Updated - - -



Enjoy auto attacking.

And seal danceing.
and aura dacing.
and buffing
and judgeing exetra...

[Rothg]

You do realize this is a thread from over a year ago right?

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Enjoy auto attacking.

If that guy starts playing classic and stays there and stops stalking this forum, then classic will be the greatest success of Blizzard, in my opinion.

[Calisto939]

And seal danceing.
and aura dacing.
and buffing
and judgeing exetra...

Don't forget the best part, going oom!

[Northern Goblin]

I do miss it too , i cant wait for vanilla.

Trust me, you really don't want it.

[ONCHEhap]

Don't forget the best part, going oom!

in other words,actual ressource management

[Faesroll]

And seal danceing.
and aura dacing.
and buffing
and judgeing exetra...

I'm not sure if you're joking or if you're actually excited for any of this?

[Northern Goblin]

in other words,actual ressource management

Yeah, no. It didn't really work so well. The only real resource management was stacking crit for illumination procs.

For Prot/Ret JoW gave poor returns for the mana intensive costs of consecrate, which outside of judgements and seal boosted auto attacks, were your only source of damage* output from 100-80%

Even rotating manapots and demonic runes wouldn't maintain, spirit was essentially useless for Paladins as a source of regen. This was an issue that persisted post Vanilla into TBC. Paladins were not engaging or fun to play.

And lord help you if you came across a Priest in PvP, you can kiss your entire offence and mana bar goodbye.

*Yes technically when tanking you also have holy shield/ret aura passives firing, but they were utterly useless.*