EU Tries to fine Poland $75 Mil. Poland sends Germany $1Trillion bill for WWII

[Ravenblade]

You won't find any political support for paying reparations these days. Anyone even suggesting that would be committing political suicide. The only way to make Germany actually pay these kinds of reparations would be to invade us again. And that would be the day I'd actually pick up a weapon and get serious. I'm not shitting you, I haven't been born into this world to pay for something that happened 3 generations before me. Over my dead body. Literally. Come and get it.

These kinds of things never had popular support in Germany but Germany was always willing to create funds for people having claims and asking for compensations for damages received in WWII. These were persons however. Germany is also well aware of the damage to nations but reparations are an entirely different thing. There is no international legal framework covering reparations between nations, everything is handled on by person-basis, so everyone is like Leeroy Jenkins first when it comes to reparations quickly realizing that it's not just pulling a boss but a lot of mobs first too. Meaning they realize that they are not the only one and that whatever claim could be made would have to be shared. Germany is also a sovereign state with its own budget, anything they want would have to pass our parliament first and then be finalized by the Federal President and the Federal Constitutional Court and the size would have to fit into budget since national issues precede external demands. That is something that has to be considered first. The imagination that Germany would pay full sum once someone unrolls a pergament with the reparation sum written in guilded letters on it would probably have come to reality only shortly after WWII. Now 72 years and one reunification later it's more or less a tool to slap Germany in the face and to ruffle some feathers.

[Babadoo]

These kinds of things never had popular support in Germany but Germany was always willing to create funds for people having claims and asking for compensations for damages received in WWII. These were persons however. Germany is also well aware of the damage to nations but reparations are an entirely different thing. There is no international legal framework covering reparations between nations, everything is handled on by person-basis, so everyone is like Leeroy Jenkins first when it comes to reparations quickly realizing that it's not just pulling a boss but a lot of mobs first too. Meaning they realize that they are not the only one and that whatever claim could be made would have to be shared. Germany is also a sovereign state with its own budget, anything they want would have to pass our parliament first and then be finalized by the Federal President and the Federal Constitutional Court and the size would have to fit into budget since national issues precede external demands. That is something that has to be considered first. The imagination that Germany would pay full sum once someone unrolls a pergament with the reparation sum written in guilded letters on it would probably have come to reality only shortly after WWII. Now 72 years and one reunification later it's more or less a tool to slap Germany in the face and to ruffle some feathers.

I bet no-one in Poland actually expects or even wants Germany to pay reparations. It's just an argument used by polish government to make Germany look bad. Pis is playing dirty, EU needs to stay above it, show composure and try not to indulge in same manners.

[Flarelaine]

I think western countries understimate the potential of eastern countries economies that are on the rise, while western economies are on a -1% or -2% level.

Rhetorics are often easy to counter with numbers. As a fact, no one in the EU had negative growth last year. And while eastern economies may have grown more, that is easily explained by the fuckload of money from Brussels. Having the East grow is the whole point of the EU.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o..._by_GDP_growth

[Rudol Von Stroheim]

Bold Solution: Remove Germany from the EU. They seem to be constantly stirring the shit-pot, which is interesting, considering they were major instigators in two world wars as it is.

Let's see if things then calm down a bit and the remaining nations can make headway. Wouldn't be horrible for Germany anyway, they have the strongest market, am I right? They'll get back on their feet in no time if they struggle at all in the first place.

Seriously though, the more this carries on, the more this seems like some clever scheme by the Germans to control and manipulate greater Europe through their influence of the EU economy. Merkel is a peculiar creature to say the least. I wouldn't have had the gall to the be as aggressive as she with all things being considered.

[Pannonian]

Bold Solution: Remove Germany from the EU. They seem to be constantly stirring the shit-pot, which is interesting, considering they were major instigators in two world wars as it is.

Let's see if things then calm down a bit and the remaining nations can make headway. Wouldn't be horrible for Germany anyway, they have the strongest market, am I right? They'll get back on their feet in no time if they struggle at all in the first place.

Seriously though, the more this carries on, the more this seems like some clever scheme by the Germans to control and manipulate greater Europe through their influence of the EU economy. Merkel is a peculiar creature to say the least. I wouldn't have had the gall to the be as aggressive as she with all things being considered.

And by that ruining the EU? Why would someone want to do that? It's already a blow that the UK leaves, but Germany would be way worse, not last because of its central position in Europe.

Loosing 2 of the 3 biggest economies and payer for the EU could easily be the death blow.

You want a bold solution? I got one for you, one that should have been enacted 15 years ago: dissolution of national parliaments. That's the only long term solution to this nationalistic bullshit.

[Deleted]

https://www.amnesty.org.uk/truth-about-refugees

Skip to point #4.



.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dublin_Regulation

According to this agreement made by the EU they are supposed to seek asylum in the first EU country they get to.

[caervek]

Really, what would they do with a trillion Euros? Seriously?

Rebuild the country, as in build it up to the state it should be in, improve schools, hospitals, infrastructure, etc. You know all the stuff you did to East Germany to make it better than Poland is.

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I'd actually pick up a weapon and get serious. I'm not shitting you, I haven't been born into this world to pay for something that happened 3 generations before me. Over my dead body. Literally. Come and get it.

What a sad attitude "my countries doing well and **** the ones that aren't because of my countries war crimes! We've dodged our debts for 70 years and we're not stopping now!"

[Rudol Von Stroheim]

And by that ruining the EU? Why would someone want to do that? It's already a blow that the UK leaves, but Germany would be way worse, not last because of its central position in Europe.

Loosing 2 of the 3 biggest economies and payer for the EU could easily be the death blow.

You want a bold solution? I got one for you, one that should have been enacted 15 years ago: dissolution of national parliaments. That's the only long term solution to this nationalistic bullshit.

Maybe the EU should just die instead, have you considered that?

The "nationalistic bullshit" is all that divides you from a one-day would-be monster of a centralized government. We can barely keep our own in check, if not failing outright in a slow but surely progressive manner. This isn't an anime. Government's tend to become corrupt and overbearing. Imagine that several times over for a landscape where emotion and bad blood still runs deep.

Likely to be ripe with abuses.

Point is, the UK was probably wise to leave the EU. Maybe not economically speaking but in terms of wanting to retain their independence, most definitely. We all know who is calling the shots in that circus and it definitely wasn't the Brits.

[Flarelaine]

Basically, until 1990 Germany was two separate countries, both of which shunned their WW2 debts on a "ask us when we are unified" basis, then after reunification the new Germany declared that it had made a deal with the USA/UK/France as part of it's reunification and it's WW2 debt was gone.

Again, factually wrong. Poland declared they expect nothing more from Germany back in 1953.

[caervek]

I bet no-one in Poland actually expects or even wants Germany to pay reparations. It's just an argument used by polish government to make Germany look bad.

Well I wouldn't say they don't want Germany to pay it's debt to them but ofc they don't expect it, they're just trying to shame Germany into ceasing to threatern them with fines for not obeying it.

[Lylandra]

Bold Solution: Remove Germany from the EU. They seem to be constantly stirring the shit-pot, which is interesting, considering they were major instigators in two world wars as it is.

Let's see if things then calm down a bit and the remaining nations can make headway. Wouldn't be horrible for Germany anyway, they have the strongest market, am I right? They'll get back on their feet in no time if they struggle at all in the first place.

Seriously though, the more this carries on, the more this seems like some clever scheme by the Germans to control and manipulate greater Europe through their influence of the EU economy. Merkel is a peculiar creature to say the least. I wouldn't have had the gall to the be as aggressive as she with all things being considered.

I really had to laugh at this. If you really believe what you just wrote then you don't know jack about German politics or politicians.

In the past, most politicians/Bundeskanzlers tried to avoid a "leading role" at any cost and many other countries' leaders (including the US and Russia) couldn't undestand why. For if you got the opportunity to seize a position of leadership, then why not take it?

And here's why: Because most Germans want to avoid being even remotely seen as or compared to a Nazi at any point.

The only thing worse than being seen as a Nazi for gaining too much power and responsibility? Seeing other people who are indeed nationalistic take over, brainwash their people and demand/shout crazy stuff. Like Erdogan. Or Orban. Or the PiS government. (Or Trump. To a bit lesser degree)

[Pannonian]

Maybe the EU should just die instead, have you considered that?

The "nationalistic bullshit" is all that divides you from a one-day would-be monster of a centralized government. We can barely keep our own in check, if not failing outright in a slow but surely progressive manner. This isn't an anime. Government's tend to become corrupt and overbearing. Imagine that several times over for a landscape where emotion and bad blood still runs deep.

Likely to be ripe with abuses.

Point is, the UK was probably wise to leave the EU. Maybe not economically speaking but in terms of wanting to retain their independence, most definitely. We all know who is calling the shots in that circus and it definitely wasn't the Brits.

No, I'll never let the EU go. Even it becomes the bureaucratic nightmare that some here envision it to be already. I would still prefer it to no EU, for a very simple reason:



The EU could get way worse, i still prefer it to the constant state of warfare we had before. Thank you very much.

I even agree that i don't think a highly centralized EU is a good idea, therefore i prefer a strong central government in Brussels and also strong governmental bodies on a local level. I just think the national and state level is unnecessary and we will never overcome nationalism while they're strong, as well they're already too centralized for the local needs: Get rid of national and state government, strengthen EU and local level.

Then wait 20 years, and war reparations don't make any sense, because who are these guys anyway? I would love to die in a world where i am a EU citizen first and foremost.

[cparle87]

A lot of these poorer countries, including Poland, have benefited more from the EU than we did from them.

Has Poland EVER been a powerful or prosperous country? Even going back into the middle ages the joke seemed to be if you bordered poland you conquered it at one or two points in time, only to have other strong countries make you give it back. How many times has it been absorbed by other nations and basically erased?

[caervek]

Again, factually wrong. Poland declared they expect nothing more from Germany back in 1953.

Nope the USSR declared that on their behalf, it's not the same. Also Germany actually paid some money towards Poland after WW2, it gave it less than 1% of what it gave other countries despite doing more damage to Poland than anywhere else. So they admitted guilt/culpability at the time, just never made proper remunerations.

Germanys attitude to paying it's debts ot Poland, Greece, etc can pretty much be summed up as so:

Pre-reunification: Speak to us after reunification.
Post-reunification: Too much time has passed, America and the others say we don't need to pay.

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Maybe the EU should just die instead, have you considered that?

It will eventually, with us gone France is going to get fed up of helping Germany bankroll the whole thing. The fourth reich will never last a thousand years :P

[Mayhem]

What a sad attitude "my countries doing well and **** the ones that aren't because of my countries war crimes! We've dodged our debts for 70 years and we're not stopping now!"

Uhm fuck the others kind of is the UK approach to everything.

[caervek]

Has Poland EVER been a powerful or prosperous country?

Yes, in fact it was Poland who turned the tide at the siege of Vienna, saving Austria/Germany (then the first reich) from the Ottoman Empire and marking the end of the Islamic conquest of Europe.

[Pannonian]

Has Poland EVER been a powerful or prosperous country? Even going back into the middle ages the joke seemed to be if you bordered poland you conquered it at one or two points in time, only to have other strong countries make you give it back. How many times has it been absorbed by other nations and basically erased?

Actually there was a period where poland wasn't only very progressive but also prosperous, but then it got divided a few times. But we talk about a time before national states (which to be honest only emerged the past 200 years). So its always hard to connect to the people at this time. They may have been subject to the polish-(lithuanian) King, but they weren't polish as they'd see themselves today (and thats in no way specific to poland)

[caervek]

Uhm fuck the others kind of is the UK approach to everything.

Dude, we forgave billions of pounds of Germany's WW1/WW2 debt because they were in no shape to pay it and we wanted to help them rebuild, and THEY were the aggressors/villains.

[Pannonian]

Yes, in fact it was Poland who turned the tide at the siege of Vienna, saving Austria/Germany (then the first reich) from the Ottoman Empire and marking the end of the Islamic conquest of Europe.

IF that really happened, it was 800 years earlier. Though the rest i can agree with. Poland was a strong and prosperous country.

[Rudol Von Stroheim]

I really had to laugh at this. If you really believe what you just wrote then you don't know jack about German politics or politicians.

In the past, most politicians/Bundeskanzlers tried to avoid a "leading role" at any cost and many other countries' leaders (including the US and Russia) couldn't undestand why. For if you got the opportunity to seize a position of leadership, then why not take it?

And here's why: Because most Germans want to avoid being even remotely seen as or compared to a Nazi at any point.

The only thing worse than being seen as a Nazi for gaining too much power and responsibility? Seeing other people who are indeed nationalistic take over, brainwash their people and demand/shout crazy stuff. Like Erdogan. Or Orban. Or the PiS government. (Or Trump. To a bit lesser degree)

The irony is when it comes to the "brainwashed", that seems to fall much more distinctly towards the EU side of affairs. So you might not have much in the way of gnashing teeth and bold rhetoric but ultimately, you guys are manipulative schemers who dream of power. Little better than ardent nationalists only your ambitions are much more lofty, willing to sell your own identity as a people to achieve it and expect everyone else to follow suit. With an abhorrent amount of cash to fund your endeavors all the while.

Not to say Erdogan is righteous and pure nor Orban. However, I'd rather deal with a bunch of small, individual would-be power-mongers than one massive monolithic tyrant that becomes so large it has virtually no one else to answer to and the democratic process becomes little more than a faux outer-shell for the at-best handful who actually control the beast from within. You guys cry about injustices of the United States day in and day out and I have this REALLY strange feeling we'd actually seem benevolent comparatively by the endgame.

All the same, my distrust for your "vision" still stems from knowing the error and flaw of my own government.