[TV/Books] Game of Thrones ***SPOILER Discussion***

[Kellorion]

Prob dont have my glasses on but where did they drop the quality in writting? because for 5 seasons the show basicly was written for D&D and now they have to write it themselfs and thats acceptable.

The writing, imho, isn't worse. It's the poor time jumps and editing of them.

[RobertoCarlos]

The writing, imho, isn't worse. It's the poor time jumps and editing of them.

The only bit of writing this season that didnt feel like it was submitted by a 15 year old fan that frequents twilight book reading sessions was when Jon was telling Dany not to use her dragons because people believed she might be able to do the impossible.

And maybe a COUPLE of one liners here and there like Olenna "Tell Cersei..." or Cersei/Qyburn in the cells with the sand snakes.

[Vestig3]

The only bit of writing this season that didnt feel like it was submitted by a 15 year old fan that frequents twilight book reading sessions was when Jon was telling Dany not to use her dragons because people believed she might be able to do the impossible.

And maybe a COUPLE of one liners here and there like Olenna "Tell Cersei..." or Cersei/Qyburn in the cells with the sand snakes.

This season writting was quite decent compared to S6.

[Mellomania]

Dany and Ghost in Winterfell

[Sooba]

Prob dont have my glasses on but where did they drop the quality in writting? because for 5 seasons the show basicly was written for D&D and now they have to write it themselfs and thats acceptable.

In the D&D 3.5 community, there was an interesting meta-concept called the "Oberoni fallacy" that was often employed (and then called out) against someone who got frustrated with huge imbalance issues with the game. Put simply into words it is "D&D isn't broken because any DM can just fiat the brokenness out of existence". This is a fallacy of course, because if the DM has to fiat blanket-ban etc, it is by definition clearly broken.

What you've done here is the same. "What drop in quality? For 5 years they had it given to them, and now they write it themselves and that's acceptable." You have inherently acknowledged the issue, while simultaneously pretending it doesn't exist. Yes there are good reasons as to why the quality dropped. That doesn't mean it didn't happen.

For someone to notice the quality drop and talk about it does not make them a show hater. It simply means they wish it could have been more.

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The situation is not better in the books. GRR Martin has two books left to end all the storylines still left in the show, plus the ones the show has ended, plus the ones the show has not even included. My feeling is that the books will feel rushed too. Martin wrote two books to describe events that were more or less happening at the same time.

I agree and disagree. Martin has delivered sufficient impetus and reason for characters to behave the way they do. As such, certain events in the books are far more likely to be in proper context and make sense, even if they occur in rapid succession.

That being said, he has not paced himself well with regards to output and the size of the project he created. Which I guess I can't begrudge too much. I'd rather he attempted it.

[Vestig3]

What you've done here is the same. "What drop in quality? For 5 years they had it given to them, and now they write it themselves and that's acceptable." You have inherently acknowledged the issue, while simultaneously pretending it doesn't exist. Yes there are good reasons as to why the quality dropped. That doesn't mean it didn't happen.

For someone to notice the quality drop and talk about it does not make them a show hater. It simply means they wish it could have been more.

I gave my opinion which was Season 7 was better written then Season 6 and you come with tl;dr?, nor did i ever call someone a show hater or anything in that area.

The way i look at it is like this if they can give me a 6-7 (writing wise) im happy with it, i dont expect a 8-9 or maybe even 10 but if they give it i will glady accept it.

[Deleted]

I thought they said in a interview that all of this was decided from the start? (their original idea was about 60 hours) never have i read that HBO wanted more, besides the show doesnt seem rushed tbh the pace is pretty steady, if anything i thought the show was going to slow in the first 5 seasons

I think everyone had different ideas about what they wanted, once HBO saw that it was as successful as it was, they'd have wanted to drag it out for as long as possible, George though book 3 and 4 would take nearly 5 seasons between them (can't remember the interview where he said it, it was back in Season 2 or 3 I think, and it got shut down pretty hard by HBO the day after), so that he could finish the books before the show ever got to that material, and D&D have always said about 60 hours.

The confusing parts start to come in when you realise that D&D cut storylines out of seasons, only to then try to jam them back in during later seasons, it's like they didn't want filler, and then suddenly realised they needed filler to get them to the arbitrary end point that they created for themselves.

[Sooba]

I think everyone had different ideas about what they wanted, once HBO saw that it was as successful as it was, they'd have wanted to drag it out for as long as possible, George though book 3 and 4 would take nearly 5 seasons between them (can't remember the interview where he said it, it was back in Season 2 or 3 I think, and it got shut down pretty hard by HBO the day after), so that he could finish the books before the show ever got to that material, and D&D have always said about 60 hours.

The confusing parts start to come in when you realise that D&D cut storylines out of seasons, only to then try to jam them back in during later seasons, it's like they didn't want filler, and then suddenly realised they needed filler to get them to the arbitrary end point that they created for themselves.

The problem is they didn't know what was actually "filler", so they cut vital storylines. Some things contribute to the larger picture even if they're not "principal" characters. They then have genuine impact on those same principal characters. Example: DB & DW thought the GC/Dorne connection was "filler" for heaven's sake. Now they're trying to ram the GC back into the story and the Dorne plot is... well, plotless.

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I gave my opinion which was Season 7 was better written then Season 6 and you come with tl;dr?, nor did i ever call someone a show hater or anything in that area.

The way i look at it is like this if they can give me a 6-7 (writing wise) im happy with it, i dont expect a 8-9 or maybe even 10 but if they give it i will glady accept it.

I gave the exact quote I was responding to with regards to the fallacy I was speaking of. You tacitly acknowledged the problem while denying its existence. This current comment of yours is closer to what I would agree with. The writing is still "ok". It was once exceptional, in dialogue and plot, due to having much better material. I would say that season 7 had different problems than 6, not necessarily better ones. Namely it has largely abandoned character motivation in favor of a tight plot, and still winds up with pacing issues. At least it has significantly eliminated generative filler.

That being said, if Carlos' contention is that the show got worse from 6->7, I'm with you. The problem did not happen there. It just changed style there. S7 is where D&D finally admitted they couldn't keep up the quality at which they had started, and instead decided to stick with what they were good at. Clearly the demarcation point of where the quality dropped is when they no longer had plenty of finished material to draw from. And as I have shown multiple times previously in the thread they definitely had the opportunity to avoid that fate. They were just too shortsighted.

The "hater" comment likely applies less to you than to others. Often the opinion you seemingly espoused "The quality didn't drop! I don't see it" goes hand-in-glove with "you book readers are just snooty haters!" Apologies for throwing too wide a net.

[Ilikegreenfire]

The problem is they didn't know what was actually "filler", so they cut vital storylines. Some things contribute to the larger picture even if they're not "principal" characters. They then have genuine impact on those same principal characters. Example: DB & DW thought the GC/Dorne connection was "filler" for heaven's sake. Now they're trying to ram the GC back into the story and the Dorne plot is... well, plotless.

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I gave the exact quote I was responding to with regards to the fallacy I was speaking of. You tacitly acknowledged the problem while denying its existence. This current comment of yours is closer to what I would agree with. The writing is still "ok". It was once exceptional, in dialogue and plot, due to having much better material. I would say that season 7 had different problems than 6, not necessarily better ones. Namely it has largely abandoned character motivation in favor of a tight plot, and still winds up with pacing issues. At least it has significantly eliminated generative filler.

That being said, if Carlos' contention is that the show got worse from 6->7, I'm with you. The problem did not happen there. It just changed style there. S7 is where D&D finally admitted they couldn't keep up the quality at which they had started, and instead decided to stick with what they were good at. Clearly the demarcation point of where the quality dropped is when they no longer had plenty of finished material to draw from. And as I have shown multiple times previously in the thread they definitely had the opportunity to avoid that fate. They were just too shortsighted.

The "hater" comment likely applies less to you than to others. Often the opinion you seemingly espoused "The quality didn't drop! I don't see it" goes hand-in-glove with "you book readers are just snooty haters!" Apologies for throwing too wide a net.

Faegon and Dorne are filler tho, Jon Con and the Golden company aren't, you can use Jon Con and the golden company while cutting out the filler, keep Jon Con the same he is in the books, Gay for Jon Snow's real dad, and thus a secret targ supporter, and then have him swap sides later on cersei.

In the books hes probably going to the citadel, with find out about R+L=J with Sam, go find Jon, look into his eyes and see his dead love realizing faegon is a fake, or something like that anyway.

[eschatological]

Season 6 was pretty bad too. They're both pretty poorly written seasons.

[Omega10]

My biggest disappointment with Game of Thrones now is that when I now watch HBO on demand, they trimmed a few scenes here and there from each episode. For example, in 3.10, the Mysa episode, in the finale of season 3, it used to end with an overhead shot of the Dragon Queen lifted on the shoulders of her admires in a huge crowd scene, with her dragons flying overhead, the unsullied in formation, and the Second Sons in a dramatic and awesome way to end the season. For whatever reason they removed some of the best shots of that scene and it is far less awesome. The Burp song scene in Moles Town has been cut to shreds, with the talking and "singing" (burping?) being so fast it's hard to understand a lot of what is being said. Ok not so much of a loss! The phrase from Stannis's wife about Melisandre and Stannis having sex together "I wept... tears of joy" was removed. Many scenes have similar "trims". ICK. and Oh well

[Deleted]

Faegon and Dorne are filler tho, Jon Con and the Golden company aren't, you can use Jon Con and the golden company while cutting out the filler, keep Jon Con the same he is in the books, Gay for Jon Snow's real dad, and thus a secret targ supporter, and then have him swap sides later on cersei.

In the books hes probably going to the citadel, with find out about R+L=J with Sam, go find Jon, look into his eyes and see his dead love realizing faegon is a fake, or something like that anyway.

Considering that we don't know how Faegon and Dorne are going to play out in the books, i'm very cautious to call them "filler".

We also don't know how Jon Con and the Golden Company will play out in the 6 episodes we have left.

[Ilikegreenfire]

My biggest disappointment with Game of Thrones now is that when I now watch HBO on demand, they trimmed a few scenes here and there from each episode. For example, in 3.10, the Mysa episode, in the finale of season 3, it used to end with an overhead shot of the Dragon Queen lifted on the shoulders of her admires in a huge crowd scene, with her dragons flying overhead, the unsullied in formation, and the Second Sons in a dramatic and awesome way to end the season. For whatever reason they removed some of the best shots of that scene and it is far less awesome. The Burp song scene in Moles Town has been cut to shreds, with the talking and "singing" (burping?) being so fast it's hard to understand a lot of what is being said. Ok not so much of a loss! The phrase from Stannis's wife about Melisandre and Stannis having sex together "I wept... tears of joy" was removed. Many scenes have similar "trims". ICK. and Oh well

What? i literally rewatched all of those scenes yesterday on HBO NOW, an none were missing.

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Considering that we don't know how Faegon and Dorne are going to play out in the books, i'm very cautious to call them "filler".

We also don't know how Jon Con and the Golden Company will play out in the 6 episodes we have left.

If they were going to be important to the end game we would have them in the show, meaning they will probably slide to the background or be killed off.

They brought Euron in season 6, in the books, he showed up and killed Balon when Robb was still alive. They introduced him 3 season late instead of scrapping him entirely, meaning they needed to because he was important to the endgame.

Its too late to throw in Faegon, tho im betting Jon Con will be in considering these are the guys that changed Asha's name and gave Euron two eyes to not confuse people, i highly doubt they would throw in the golden company name and no have them turn out to be secret targ loyalists, as chances are that it where Jon Con is heading in the books.

He is going to go to Old Town like Jorah and will probably find out about jon, go north to Jon, look into Jon's eyes or something and realize Jon is actually Rhaegar's son and Faegon is a fake.

[Deleted]

What? i literally rewatched all of those scenes yesterday on HBO NOW, an none were missing.

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If they were going to be important to the end game we would have them in the show, meaning they will probably slide to the background or be killed off.

They brought Euron in season 6, in the books, he showed up and killed Balon when Robb was still alive. They introduced him 3 season late instead of scrapping him entirely, meaning they needed to because he was important to the endgame.

Its too late to throw in Faegon, tho im betting Jon Con will be in considering these are the guys that changed Asha's name and gave Euron two eyes to not confuse people, i highly doubt they would throw in the golden company name and no have them turn out to be secret targ loyalists, as chances are that it where Jon Con is heading in the books.

He is going to go to Old Town like Jorah and will probably find out about jon, go north to Jon, look into Jon's eyes or something and realize Jon is actually Rhaegar's son and Faergon is a fake.

Just because something won't make it all the way to the end of the books doesn't make it filler.

I'm beginning to hate that argument.

[Ilikegreenfire]

Just because something won't make it all the way to the end of the books doesn't make it filler.

I'm beginning to hate that argument.

Correct me if im wrong but the guy i was originally quoting called Dorne a vital story line, i mean the story line might effect other more important ones, but the dorne one it's self will sink to the background /be killed off entirely, i would call it more filler then i would call it vital. Its main purpose is to kill Myrcella then sink away and give dany a army.

Jon Dany Brann Euron ext is what i would call vital plot lines.

The problem is they didn't know what was actually "filler", so they cut vital storylines. Some things contribute to the larger picture even if they're not "principal" characters.

[eschatological]

Calling the Dornish Master Plan filler pains me. Like, literally pains me. Doran is one of the greatest strategists in the book, and, nevermind how he was butchered in the show, but to suggest his whole plot is filler just because the show cut it out is silly, especially since their adaptation is based on incomplete knowledge of the final work.

And before you say "GRRM TOLD THEM HOW IT ENDS," I don't believe for a second that he went into any depth on that. Obviously the final conflict is between the White Walkers and the remnants of the Seven Kingdoms, but you'd be hard pressed to argue that the remnants left in the show will necessarily be the ones in the book. Especially considering the Tyrells, for example, are still very much alive, very much not in the Sept of Baelor, there's a whole son in the books not in the show ruling at Highgarden, etc. And those inconsistencies go up and down the entire series.

It's like saying the outcome of a chess game is White's queen declaring check mate on Black's King, and assuming they're the only two pieces left on the board.

[Ilikegreenfire]

Calling the Dornish Master Plan filler pains me. Like, literally pains me. Doran is one of the greatest strategists in the book, and, nevermind how he was butchered in the show, but to suggest his whole plot is filler just because the show cut it out is silly, especially since their adaptation is based on incomplete knowledge of the final work.

And before you say "GRRM TOLD THEM HOW IT ENDS," I don't believe for a second that he went into any depth on that. Obviously the final conflict is between the White Walkers and the remnants of the Seven Kingdoms, but you'd be hard pressed to argue that the remnants left in the show will necessarily be the ones in the book. Especially considering the Tyrells, for example, are still very much alive, very much not in the Sept of Baelor, there's a whole son in the books not in the show ruling at Highgarden, etc. And those inconsistencies go up and down the entire series.

It's like saying the outcome of a chess game is White's queen declaring check mate on Black's King, and assuming they're the only two pieces left on the board.

We know a rough idea of Jon Con's WoW plot for Jorah and Sam's season 7 one. He goes to the citadel Sam cures him they probably find out about Jon right then and there. Jon Con goes north to find jona nd probably realized faegon is fkae. After Faegon is gone and Dany gets 8 inches of Snow dorne sinks into the background.

Garlan is 99% going to die when Euron gets to Old Town. Once old town goes highgarden is next. Loras is supposedly mortally wounded on dragonstone.

I mean i could be fucking insane but we have enough evidence from the plots in the books and from whats going on in the show to extrapolate whats going to happen.

[Deleted]

I mean i could be fucking insane but we have enough evidence from the plots in the books and from whats going on in the show to extrapolate whats going to happen.

Can you extrapolate that Dorne won't make it to the end of the books? Possibly.

Does that mean they are anything even remotely approaching "filler"? No.

[eschatological]

We know a rough idea of Jon Con's WoW plot for Jorah and Sam's season 7 one. He goes to the citadel Sam cures him they probably find out about Jon right then and there. Jon Con goes north to find jona nd probably realized faegon is fkae. After Faegon is gone and Dany gets 8 inches of Snow dorne sinks into the background.

Garlan is 99% going to die when Euron gets to Old Town. Once old town goes highgarden is next. Loras is supposedly mortally wounded on dragonstone.

I mean i could be fucking insane but we have enough evidence from the plots in the books and from whats going on in the show to extrapolate whats going to happen.

Why are you interpreting Jon will go find a cure? He has very different motivations than Jorah in the show, he might be willing to sacrifice his life to see Aegon on the throne. Keep in mind, there's not even a hint of a cure for greyscale in adults in the books, so unless Aegon banishes him to the Citadel where they take care of sick people (an unnecessary step as any Maester in any Keep should be able to do the same palliative care), it seems like quite the leap you're making just because Jorah has greyscale in the show, in lieu of Jon.

Garlan, last we knew, was on his way back to the Reach to fight Euron at the Shields. I'm not talking about Garlan, I'm talking about Willas, eldest son and heir to Highgarden. I'm talking about the fact that Randyll Tarly would never tolerate an attack by the Greyjoys on the Reach. I'm talking about the fact that the Krakens never go inland or actually hold territories, and when Asha did it in the North it was seen as a fool's errand.

And then, to go back to Dorne - Myrcella isn't even dead in the books. If she dies (which would line up with the prophecy), it seems likely it won't be in Dornish hands. The Darkstar tried to kill her, Areo Hotah saved her, Doran's people nursed her back to health, and Doran is in the process of sending her back North with Jaime and one of the Sand Snakes, Nym. Not to mention Doran dealt with the Sand Snakes decisively and has Ellaria handcuffed in terms of what she can get away. No, in the books, it seems like Myrcella is likely to die because of something Cersei does, which is, narratively, a more sensible direction for her death, and probably as a pretext for war with Dorne.

Garlan - Jesus. Who gives a shit about Garlan?

[ohiostate124]

Isn't Garlan supposed to be one of the most badass fighters in the books?