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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by RobertoCarlos View Post
    Casting rupture is pretty hard, i feel you dawg
    And keeping track of all targets while not letting the dots fall off, while managing your rotation on your main target still. Yes, it is certainly far harder than your two button ST AoE spam that you think is so difficult. Nice strawman though.

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Valkaneer View Post
    And keeping track of all targets while not letting the dots fall off, while managing your rotation on your main target still. Yes, it is certainly far harder than your two button ST AoE spam that you think is so difficult. Nice strawman though.
    Outside of M+ how often are there 4-5 target fights where they are up long enough to worry about constantly refreshing rupture. Most mobs die within its first cast duration and 2 target cleave is more common but that really isnt difficult keeping dots up on two target.

    Inside M+ you might have a point for high level dungeons where its more likely there is this mythical 5+ targets for at least a 2min duration to make it interesting, I would argue making correct use of legendary cloak/invisibility and shoulder crit for sub is the same difficulty. Ie not much but you have to focus on it at least.

  3. #43
    If you know anything about how shitty we scale you will see that these are no buffs. These are quick fix auras to keep us "relevant." Which every week we are becoming less and less. This tier is done anyways and everything will change again in like 4 weeks or something so it really doesn't matter much right now. Hopefully outlaw gets a turn to be on top before the xpac is over but i wont hold my breath. Only time will tell but i expect no change until 7.3.5

    I guess we will know for sure in 5 hours my side

  4. #44
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    Sub is the most versatile spec this expansion, it just does everything better than the other two.

    This includes:
    1) ST damage, sin can come somewhat close, and i use it on mythic Maiden and Avatar, but its just too rng filled with PB procs, easily the worst thing they did to sin
    2) AoE, second shuriken is just too good of a talent, you can really burst down adds, or really buff your damage into the boss
    3) Movement, having two charges of shadow step, and the teleport at the start + vanish is really nice
    4) The scaling of gear, and stats is WAY better than the other two specs, highest ilvl gear nearly always wins, even jewelry (i have a 955 crit/verse neck equipped)
    5) Ease of relic choices, pretty much whatever has the highest ilvl (within reason) wins, unlike sin where you NEED MA relics to be viable

    I loved old combat, and sin was also extremely fun, but they've really made sub the only viable choice. Sin has too much of a dependence on PB procs and on mastery stacking, and makes it miserable to play and gear. Outlaw is well..... outlaw, i don't need to say much more, that spec is miserable to play in mythic raids.

  5. #45
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Ilir View Post
    I'd rather have lower base damage but more energy regen so you don't get energy starved. (same damage but you basically use your actions more often)
    But that would be fun and logical. Blizz already made sure that isnt the case with all the changes they made last "rework" before ToS.

    Now without CoF, bracers being bad and no 2pT19, only 2 charges of short Shadow Dance that are available less often... sub is going to be sooooo much fun!!!

    Backstab spam and Nightblade refreshing for days!!

    Sub gameplay is already pretty bad with current best build (DfA), but at least you can still go with 2pt19 and cof+bracers to help the fun part. But in antorus... its going to be several times worse.
    Last edited by mmoc93208f15ee; 2017-09-13 at 10:13 AM.

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by genai View Post
    But that would be fun and logical. Blizz already made sure that isnt the case with all the changes they made last "rework" before ToS.

    Now without CoF, bracers being bad and no 2pT19, only 2 charges of short Shadow Dance that are available less often... sub is going to be sooooo much fun!!!

    Backstab spam and Nightblade refreshing for days!!

    Sub gameplay is already pretty bad with current best build (DfA), but at least you can still go with 2pt19 and cof+bracers to help the fun part. But in antorus... its going to be several times worse.
    Are you saying sub was better designed before 7.2.5 when it needed the boots to even function properly? Most rogues seem to agree that it was arguably the worst iteration of sub ever. Also, I know t19 2 piece makes things easier, but there are many sub rogues who have been able to adjust and enjoy the spec just fine without it.

  7. #47
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Varolyn View Post
    Are you saying sub was better designed before 7.2.5 when it needed the boots to even function properly? Most rogues seem to agree that it was arguably the worst iteration of sub ever. Also, I know t19 2 piece makes things easier, but there are many sub rogues who have been able to adjust and enjoy the spec just fine without it.
    Yes, i loved it more before rework(then again, my first legendary were boots... still no bracer/shoulder, so i went from perfect to terrible since rework). Tho, it wouldnt be bad now if dark shadow and dfa werent best, but old 2,2,1,x,x,3,1 spec.

    Many love the damage and its not hard to "adjust" to it, but still find it terribly boring to just BS and refresh NB every 2nd finisher. It could be nr1 dps spec overall by far, 50% above the 2nd and i would still hate it.

    Playing just the talent build is terrible enough for me, after switching from the build above... that i cant fathom ever playing without 2pT19 and CoF.
    I said to friends "no raiding for me once cof and T19 become so bad, numbers wise, that they are unusable". Spec is dead to me at that point.

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by genai View Post
    Yes, i loved it more before rework(then again, my first legendary were boots... still no bracer/shoulder, so i went from perfect to terrible since rework). Tho, it wouldnt be bad now if dark shadow and dfa werent best, but old 2,2,1,x,x,3,1 spec.

    Many love the damage and its not hard to "adjust" to it, but still find it terribly boring to just BS and refresh NB every 2nd finisher. It could be nr1 dps spec overall by far, 50% above the 2nd and i would still hate it.

    Playing just the talent build is terrible enough for me, after switching from the build above... that i cant fathom ever playing without 2pT19 and CoF.
    I said to friends "no raiding for me once cof and T19 become so bad, numbers wise, that they are unusable". Spec is dead to me at that point.
    You are in a very small minority, then. Sub's sustained relied on being in dance nearly all the time before the re-work, any downtime without dance and your damage would plummet. Let's not even get started on how much worse symbols was back then.

    I respect your opinion, but many sub rogues love dark shadow and less dance charges cause it makes them more meaningful. Remember, dance was a one minute cd in wod but sub rogues loved how the spec played in pve because of the satisfying feeling they got when executing the perfect dance window. Dark shadow gives them shades of that feeling.

    Also, sub was never suppose to be a global locked spec, which is what your build is now. It was always about timing and lining, and even the DFA build is way too fast imo.

  9. #49
    Deleted
    Sub - in its current state - is pretty much perfekt. The T20 4p SoD cooldown reduce should be baseline imo. With T21 we need to delay again. Dunno why we are not allowed to have fun with a fluid spec (as it is right now).

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Oxigan View Post
    Sub - in its current state - is pretty much perfekt. The T20 4p SoD cooldown reduce should be baseline imo. With T21 we need to delay again. Dunno why we are not allowed to have fun with a fluid spec (as it is right now).
    I mean, tier bonuses that give QoL changes have been around for a long time now, and not just for rogues. It sucks when it first goes away, but people just adjust to whatever the new meta is and turn it "fluid."

  11. #51
    Well, SiN is officially the lowest dps spec in game.

    How does that even happen? Incredible.

  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by nocturnus View Post
    Well, SiN is officially the lowest dps spec in game.

    How does that even happen? Incredible.
    Idk about you but my damage skyrocketed yesterday. Also, the top assassination parse on M gorothwent from 1.3 mil before yesterday to 1.5 mil today, so damage clearly has gone up a bit. Just cause sin can't cheese on adds on certain bosses, doesn't mean it's a useless spec. You probably think outlaw is better than sin right now lmao.

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Varolyn View Post
    Idk about you but my damage skyrocketed yesterday. Also, the top assassination parse on M gorothwent from 1.3 mil before yesterday to 1.5 mil today, so damage clearly has gone up a bit. Just cause sin can't cheese on adds on certain bosses, doesn't mean it's a useless spec. You probably think outlaw is better than sin right now lmao.
    Okay, clarify please. Are you talking about the general top parse? Because what other classes are doing is of no consequence to our class, let alone spec.

    If you mean your dps "skyrocketed" from 1.3m to 1.5m I'd love to see your logs. But that seems extremely doubtful since SiN is at the utter bottom of the list on ST. I won't even mention MT, since ya know, we don't have any viable AOE.
    Last edited by nocturnus; 2017-09-13 at 06:02 PM.

  14. #54
    In all seriousness I am gonna be pretty pissed if this new raid tier doesn't have any nature damage trinkets to couple with toxic blade.
    The fact that sub does More with shadow damage and there's so many trinkets that give that is mind boggling.

    A nature damage trinket active with 100 crit during a vanish/opener would be really nice to have one of these days

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Dunderstudy View Post
    In all seriousness I am gonna be pretty pissed if this new raid tier doesn't have any nature damage trinkets to couple with toxic blade.
    The fact that sub does More with shadow damage and there's so many trinkets that give that is mind boggling.

    A nature damage trinket active with 100 crit during a vanish/opener would be really nice to have one of these days
    The new raid is already in the dungeon journal, there's a nature damage trinket off the 6th(?) boss. On use 280k(?) nature damage a second for 10 seconds, 1.5min CD.

  16. #56
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Varolyn View Post
    You are in a very small minority, then. Sub's sustained relied on being in dance nearly all the time before the re-work, any downtime without dance and your damage would plummet. Let's not even get started on how much worse symbols was back then.

    I respect your opinion, but many sub rogues love dark shadow and less dance charges cause it makes them more meaningful. Remember, dance was a one minute cd in wod but sub rogues loved how the spec played in pve because of the satisfying feeling they got when executing the perfect dance window. Dark shadow gives them shades of that feeling.

    Also, sub was never suppose to be a global locked spec, which is what your build is now. It was always about timing and lining, and even the DFA build is way too fast imo.
    Well, i didnt like sub in WoD and changed to sub in legion because it was fun to play jumping in and out of dance and porting around with shadowstrike (no matter how many issues it created in dungeons and such). I dont have to be global locked, that is not the issue here.

    The issue is how terrible gameplay is outside of dance. BS is just so damn slow(costs a lot of energy) AND generates just 1 CP. With NB being so short, you can barely do anything other than BS + NB outside of dance. I dont care if dance did billions of damage if 80% of time gameplay is atrocious. So i am all for making outside of dance good and then dance that bit of boost, both in damage and faster gameplay. Then i wouldnt mind dance being short and rare.

    CoF + bracers and 2pT19 saved it a bit because shadow blades make backstabbing okay and 2pT19 lets you do less of damn dot refreshing. But now in T21 its all gone and you will pretty much want to kill yourself backstabbing and refreshing NB and then throw atomic bomb every shadow dance. If that is not terrible design(and atrocious to play), then terrible design doesnt exist. Barely scratching your targets 80% of time, but 20% of time you drop 20m+ crits and deal majority of your damage.

  17. #57
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Lazyyrogue View Post
    Sub is the most versatile spec this expansion, it just does everything better than the other two.
    its more like in this content. until tomb sub was mediocre in this expension, especially in m+.

    Now without CoF, bracers being bad
    in what connection? I mean this is what the sims are telling us, but I don't know why the bracers should be affected by CoF anyways. The bracers are nearly as good as prior the nerf, you get still 4 gcds in your dance.
    Last edited by mmoca163a27034; 2017-09-14 at 11:54 AM.

  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by Rucati View Post
    The new raid is already in the dungeon journal, there's a nature damage trinket off the 6th(?) boss. On use 280k(?) nature damage a second for 10 seconds, 1.5min CD.

    I haven't looked yet I only have really had time for ah and getting NLC.
    I have bad rng and work every Tuesday Wednesday Thursday so I miss 95 % of my guilds h/m runs .
    I wonder if this will scale with surge of toxins. Probably not but a sin can dream.

  19. #59
    My friend and I have been raiding as sin for a few expansions now, and last night was our chance to really see how the changes affected us. Across the board, between both of us the increase was a nearly constant 7-8% from bosses a week ago. I'm pretty confident with that number as it matches both of us and it was +/- less than 1%. The real problem is that other classes made a HUGE jump. Our mage was up about 14% for nearly every boss, Warriors about 11%, etc. I'm not upset that classes scale differently (maybe rng relics are better, the +15 ilvls for the weapon scale better, etc.), but we were barely hanging in there before and now it's pretty poor. Still not bottom of the barrel in our specific group, but that's likely due to gear and skill than all things being equal. I seriously hope my numbers are wrong because I don't really want to pump everything into sub just to be competitive (it's basically starting over), and then who knows what the next raid will bring.

    It's frustrating.

  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Tygor View Post
    My friend and I have been raiding as sin for a few expansions now, and last night was our chance to really see how the changes affected us. Across the board, between both of us the increase was a nearly constant 7-8% from bosses a week ago. I'm pretty confident with that number as it matches both of us and it was +/- less than 1%. The real problem is that other classes made a HUGE jump. Our mage was up about 14% for nearly every boss, Warriors about 11%, etc. I'm not upset that classes scale differently (maybe rng relics are better, the +15 ilvls for the weapon scale better, etc.), but we were barely hanging in there before and now it's pretty poor. Still not bottom of the barrel in our specific group, but that's likely due to gear and skill than all things being equal. I seriously hope my numbers are wrong because I don't really want to pump everything into sub just to be competitive (it's basically starting over), and then who knows what the next raid will bring.

    It's frustrating.
    should've stopped playing sin a long time ago.. you decided to play an inferior spec so don't complain

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