[EU] Juncker's "State of the Union" speech

[Mittens]

Pushing the Euro further, jeez Juncker at this point I think you are purposely trying to sabotage the EU.

[Pann]

Then you have not followed any election in Europe recently where being part of Europe or not has become a talking point due to anti-European parties.

Beyond that if i cannot make the claim that they voted for a party for the EU, you cannot do the opposite either if we have to be absolutely objective about this.

None of this is an endorsement of Juncker's plans.

I haven't made any such claims. I have simply stated that it is wrong to suggest, as you did, because pro-European parties have been elected that people are favour what has been proposed. Just as it is wrong for those who claim that the UK as a whole is fully supportive of Brexit because the majority voted for pro-Brexit parties.

[Acidbaron]

I'm really no where near your level of passion here, so sorry for this lazy response, feel free to dismiss.

- No, it was just a metric and about the only thing you have to judge public perception right now weak or not.

- We agree, there is opposition - I'm not surprised by this, just pointing to out as to why people might not be happy.

- Was speaking on the merger of the two 'most powerful' presidents in the EU.

- Yeah, I misunderstood that, my bad.

I merely aim to explain, i don't mind people opposing something or being against something as long it is grounded in actual truths. So i don't mind if your response is shorter, i have plenty of reservations myself about how much of this actually will be realized but i have yet to see any politician start of with a weak plan merely to weaken it further down the line, one generally always starts off overly ambitious.

As for the power merger, highly unlikely and hardly a priority i would say at this point. It would merely muddy the waters even more was that actually suggested?

edit: appears that is a suggestion on the table after looking over the list now.

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None of this is an endorsement of Juncker's plans.

I haven't made any such claims. I have simply stated that it is wrong to suggest, as you did, because pro-European parties have been elected that people are favour what has been proposed. Just as it is wrong for those who claim that the UK as a whole is fully supportive of Brexit because the majority voted for pro-Brexit parties.

Endorsement for his plan letter by letter? No that it is not. That being said people did not vote anti-europe and people do not oppose EU expansion of laws where it makes sense. And if not people would not vote for those representatives on an EU level next time around, since yes they are voted for, people would also not look favorably on their national parliament and Juncker would not be sitting there next term, however they generally don't stick around for that long anyhow.

The Brexit however is in my opinion not comparable since we are looking there at how many people actually went out and voted and i believe it was rather low in general.
Also The majority did not vote for pro Brexit parties, simply put the parties for and against simply stood by the referendum.

[Slant]

Hm, overall I can't imagine this will be received very well by the masses honestly.

I think many people by now realize that the EU isn't a conspiracy to make everyone's life miserable in Europe. I wouldn't make such grand statements, if I was you.

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Congrats to Greece! Unemployment has fallen from 23% to 21%! (It was 7% pre-GFC.)

Hooray! Austerity is working!

Austerity is working. Just wait and see what happens when austerity goals have been achieved and Greece has room to play around with their budget again. Right now, Greece is held under value, due to the near-bankruptcy and being dependent on other nations to sustain them. Once that's done, they'll boom harder than babies during a blackout. It's what boosted Germany into the position they are in now. It'll happen in Greece, too. Albeit on a smaller scale, due to the country being smaller.

[Pann]

Endorsement for his plan letter by letter? No that it is not. That being said people did not vote anti-europe and people do not oppose EU expansion of laws where it makes sense. And if not people would not vote for those representatives on an EU level next time around, since yes they are voted for, people would also not look favorably on their national parliament and Juncker would not be sitting there next term, however they generally don't stick around for that long anyhow.

The Brexit however is in my opinion not comparable since we are looking there at how many people actually went out and voted and i believe it was rather low in general.
Also The majority did not vote for pro Brexit parties, simply put the parties for and against simply stood by the referendum.

You don't know the reasons behind what people voted for nor do you know whether or not they will oppose EU expansion of laws or indeed if they think it would make sense. Voting for a party or person is not an indication that the voter will agree something in the future. This is not a difficult concept to grasp (or at least it shouldn't be).

I did not say that Brexit was comparable. The majority voted in the last general election for parties that have said they will carry out Brexit so either those who voted to remain changed their minds and support leaving or they voted as they did for a number of different reasons.

[Deleted]

But do we want those countries in the Eurozone?

I think we all recall how the Greeks endangered it during their financial problem. Do we really want to give countries such as Romania, Bulgaria, Poland the ability to screw us over, intentionally or on accident, when they go crashing down financially?

[Rockyreg]

But do we want those countries in the Eurozone?

I think we all recall how the Greeks endangered it during their financial problem. Do we really want to give countries such as Romania, Bulgaria, Poland the ability to screw us over, intentionally or on accident, when they go crashing down financially?

Germany would never allow a full fiscal union with transfers (which is probably what is required to permanently fix the underlying issues with the Euro) unless they can directly oversee other member states economies, and I can't say that I would blame them considering the amount they have already sunk into the EU project.

[Acidbaron]

But do we want those countries in the Eurozone?

I think we all recall how the Greeks endangered it during their financial problem. Do we really want to give countries such as Romania, Bulgaria, Poland the ability to screw us over, intentionally or on accident, when they go crashing down financially?

That is a fair call to make, however Greece did one thing very well. It made certain that the EU can no longer let the budgets of each nation be an exercise of self control. It does not work therefor the EU request each member state to present and defend their budget if needed making it require certain standards to secure another crisis is avoided.

The same goes to a point for banks, which is why the problem in Italy was detected before it became a major issue.

In general i do not see this at this point in time move beyond that, every nation will want to maintain control over their budget completely while being ok with it that the EU has a pass over it, determining if it is viable or not.

[Slant]

Germany would never allow a full fiscal union with transfers (which is probably what is required to permanently fix the underlying issues with the Euro) unless they can directly oversee other member states economies, and I can't say that I would blame them considering the amount they have already sunk into the EU project.

Erm, that is not quite correct. Germany is already in favour of a fiscal union. In fact it was our finance minister that put it on the table last year (or was it this year?). Germany doesn't want direct oversight over other member states. That would be arrogant and overstepping our position quite a bit. What Germany wants is the EU (ECB) to oversee those economies. That's their job. And they're not too shabby at it, despite mistakes having been made.

[Deleted]

Erm, that is not quite correct. Germany is already in favour of a fiscal union. In fact it was our finance minister that put it on the table last year (or was it this year?). Germany doesn't want direct oversight over other member states. That would be arrogant and overstepping our position quite a bit. What Germany wants is the EU (ECB) to oversee those economies. That's their job. And they're not too shabby at it, despite mistakes having been made.

yeah but they are also opposed to a part of it, debt mutualisation, precisely because they don't want to be on the hook for another Greece.
That being said, there is a good solution to this problem, and that is removing the individual states ability to loan money for themselves, they would only be able to loan money together, course that has problems too.

[Slant]

yeah but they are also opposed to a part of it, debt mutualisation, precisely because they don't want to be on the hook for another Greece.
That being said, there is a good solution to this problem, and that is removing the individual states ability to loan money for themselves, they would only be able to loan money together, course that has problems too.

Meh, Germany is on the hook for another Greece either way. It's not like anyone expects Poland or Finland to step up and pump billions into another country just like that. The key advantage over a fiscal union is that taxes and budgets are overseen properly on an EU level and when people start complaining about Germany's economy, they get to see our awesome tax rates as well. Compare 10% corporate tax in Bulgaria to Germany's 22-32%.

[paralleluniverse]

Austerity is working. Just wait and see what happens when austerity goals have been achieved and Greece has room to play around with their budget again. Right now, Greece is held under value, due to the near-bankruptcy and being dependent on other nations to sustain them. Once that's done, they'll boom harder than babies during a blackout. It's what boosted Germany into the position they are in now. It'll happen in Greece, too. Albeit on a smaller scale, due to the country being smaller.

21% unemployment what a smashing success! Nope. Actually, the macroeconomic prediction that austerity leads to depression continues to be vindicated.

You seem to have zero grasp about how seriously fucked Greece is.

Here's the IMF's Debt Sustainability Analysis for Greece assuming it maintains a 1.5% primary surplus from now until the next 50 years (i.e. austerity and cuts forever).



Unless Greece leaves the euro or all the right-wing politicians are voted out across the eurozone (will not happen), the current Greece crisis will still be ongoing when you're living in a retirement village 50 years from now.

[Deleted]

21% unemployment what a smashing success! Nope. Actually, the macroeconomic prediction that austerity leads to depression continues to be vindicated.

What would have been best is assuredly an expansionist economic policy.
Pray tell, how much cash does Greece have on hand?
That's the problem, yes it would have been better with structural reforms and a lose fiscal policy, but Greece is both broke and largely uninterested in said structural reforms.

[Slant]

21% unemployment what a smashing success! Nope. Actually, the macroeconomic prediction that austerity leads to depression continues to be vindicated.

21% is an improvement from 23%. I don't see how you manage to see the gloom in that. In what hippie world do you expect that a country with over 20% unemployment, zero credit rating and a shitload of debt can actually do better than that?

Normally, we'd be looking at 40% and upwards of unemployment. But be like that. I don't mind you disagreeing.

[Acidbaron]

21% unemployment what a smashing success! Nope. Actually, the macroeconomic prediction that austerity leads to depression continues to be vindicated.

You seem to have zero grasp about how seriously fucked Greece is.

Here's the IMF's Debt Sustainability Analysis for Greece assuming it maintains a 1.5% primary surplus from now until the next 50 years (i.e. austerity and cuts forever).



Unless Greece leaves the euro or all the right-wing politicians are voted out across the eurozone (will not happen), the current Greece crisis will still be ongoing when you're living in a retirement village 50 years from now.

Has austerity brought forth the wanted results? It has not.

However to say that first and foremost austerity wasn't taken in fully into account when it was suggested it was fought by populist politicians. We also have to stress the point that Greece has a structural problem, Greece was heading towards this crisis regardless if they joined the EU or not. A large part of the population was employed in the public sector, tax evasion was high and local level politicians supporting this kind of mentality, on top of that sabotaging their own tourist sector with nation wide strikes and so on.

Those right wing politicians are still in favor of supporting Greece under conditions, this is not an absurd situation unless you again wish to completely ignore the past, the past where support was given without conditions or demands and how we came to a repeat of the cycle that was worse.

And what do you suggest is the next step, what will leaving achieve them? Cause i believe you come from a position that is not realistic, a position that suggests replacing the euro with the drachma what is not even possible at this point merely out of practical reasons.

It is easy to shout from the side lines, so if you are so confident that the current course is the complete wrong one, which is the right one?

[Mafic]

Austerity for Greece has not worked and will never work. It is simply a bail out plan for the big players so they do not have to take a big hair cut again.

This is why the idea of pushing the Euro to other nations seems crazy to me. The EU needs to stabilize countries that use the Euro first before entertaining the idea of having more countries adopt the Euro.