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  1. #21
    I am Murloc!
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    I thought it was strange a couple days ago that unholy wasn't present on the melee DPS adjustments coming Tuesday. Not because unholy is weak (it certainly isn't), but because the class doesn't really scale well with weapon damage, and lets be serious, sub got buffed and that spec certainly didn't need help (despite it not scaling super well with weapon damage either).

    So I guess the reason it wasn't there is because they re-adjusted the second tier crucible talents. They nerfed some of the values by 10-20% and buffed some of the other ones. Apparently they scale with crit and damage modifiers that are applicable, and they also scale with haste. Due to their complete random proc rates, it's unrealistic for warriors/rogues to actually take advantage of these procs due to how the specs are played, and how their damage windows are short. Unholy doesn't have this problem, and if these values are truly going to scale with mastery, it's a pretty massive buff and likely makes unholy absurd with this tier of talents.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by paraalso View Post
    As it is right now, the 650 mastery+avoidance and 650 haste+speed traits are far above most of the other traits. Even if the shadow traits scaled with mastery, most of them would still be weaker than the Master of Shadows 650 mastery for dps, and you get a lot of survivability from the avoidance on top of that. They might still tweak some values before it goes live, though.
    They did. But probably still the best to get flat stats? At least I would think so.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tojara View Post
    I thought it was strange a couple days ago that unholy wasn't present on the melee DPS adjustments coming Tuesday. Not because unholy is weak (it certainly isn't), but because the class doesn't really scale well with weapon damage, and lets be serious, sub got buffed and that spec certainly didn't need help (despite it not scaling super well with weapon damage either).

    So I guess the reason it wasn't there is because they re-adjusted the second tier crucible talents. They nerfed some of the values by 10-20% and buffed some of the other ones. Apparently they scale with crit and damage modifiers that are applicable, and they also scale with haste. Due to their complete random proc rates, it's unrealistic for warriors/rogues to actually take advantage of these procs due to how the specs are played, and how their damage windows are short. Unholy doesn't have this problem, and if these values are truly going to scale with mastery, it's a pretty massive buff and likely makes unholy absurd with this tier of talents.
    Unholy did get a buff. It was just undocumented: Dark Arbiter's duration now starts when she begins casting. That was a fairly good buff overall it seems (comparing 7.2.5 Unholy to 7.3 Unholy on WCL).

    Edit: It was also a buff we didnt have to wait for the Crucible to receive. =P

  3. #23
    So with it now sacaling with mastery, does this mean you will pretty much never want a light based one as unholy? I guess if the right trait would be super amazing you'd have to account for that..

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Haidaes View Post
    So with it now sacaling with mastery, does this mean you will pretty much never want a light based one as unholy? I guess if the right trait would be super amazing you'd have to account for that..
    Ultimately your going down w/e path gets you Plaguebearer/Fallen Crusader/death coil traits that determines how you move down your relic tree's more than anything else.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Baddok21 View Post
    Ultimately your going down w/e path gets you Plaguebearer/Fallen Crusader/death coil traits that determines how you move down your relic tree's more than anything else.
    So shadow vs. light is only a secondary concern?

    Edit I guess the extra dps on the procc (from mastery) does about 5k dps which isn't the world.
    Last edited by Cosmic Janitor; 2017-09-13 at 05:37 AM.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Haidaes View Post
    So shadow vs. light is only a secondary concern?
    compared to getting your final trait thats a BiS trait, yes

    i have a 935 Darkest Crusade Relic with a plaguebearer as the secondary trait at the bottom. The plague bearer is on the far right meaning i have to take the light secondary bonus to get to it.

    no matter what i take that trait, no questions asked.

  7. #27
    Please check raidbots, they have an excellent tool (relic compare) to sim whats best.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Baddok21 View Post
    compared to getting your final trait thats a BiS trait, yes

    i have a 935 Darkest Crusade Relic with a plaguebearer as the secondary trait at the bottom. The plague bearer is on the far right meaning i have to take the light secondary bonus to get to it.

    no matter what i take that trait, no questions asked.
    Are you sure about that? For casters the T2 shadow/light traits can provide more DPS than a single artifact trait.

    For example ... for mages the T2 Shadow/Light traits range from 5k-25k DPS. While the artifact traits that provide DPS range from 5k-12k DPS.

  9. #29
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Baddok21 View Post
    compared to getting your final trait thats a BiS trait, yes

    i have a 935 Darkest Crusade Relic with a plaguebearer as the secondary trait at the bottom. The plague bearer is on the far right meaning i have to take the light secondary bonus to get to it.

    no matter what i take that trait, no questions asked.
    No. The tier 2 traits are more important than any of the normal relic traits including Plaguebearer. For example Refractive Shell + Plaguebearer is worse than Torment the Weak + Deadly Durability for single target dps, and Deadly Durability is a zero dps relic trait. For aoe the value of Plaguebearer goes up, but so does the value of traits like Master of Shadows.

    You have to look at the total value of all 3 traits in a relic to make a judgement. Sometimes taking 3 good traits can be better than taking a mix of BiS and bad traits.
    Last edited by mmoc7960b93d6c; 2017-09-13 at 02:42 PM.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by paraalso View Post
    No. The tier 2 traits are more important than any of the normal relic traits including Plaguebearer. For example Refractive Shell + Plaguebearer is worse than Torment the Weak + Deadly Durability for single target dps, and Deadly Durability is a zero dps relic trait. For aoe the value of Plaguebearer goes up, but so does the value of traits like Master of Shadows.

    You have to look at the total value of all 3 traits in a relic to make a judgement. Sometimes taking 3 good traits can be better than taking a mix of BiS and bad traits.
    well your comparison is saying Torment the weak is stronger than Plaguebearer since your comparing a non-dps relic and a non-dps trait.

    I havent found a single target log (AoE would be overwhelmingly in Plagues favor) where the dmg of one plaguebearer trait is lower than that of torment the weak. Im willing to change my oppinion on this if someone can show evidence with logs.
    Last edited by Baddok21; 2017-09-13 at 04:36 PM.

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baddok21 View Post
    well your comparison is saying Torment the weak is stronger than Plaguebearer since your comparing a non-dps relic and a non-dps trait.

    I havent found a single target log (AoE would be overwhelmingly in Plagues favor) where the dmg of one plaguebearer trait is lower than that of torment the weak. Im willing to change my oppinion on this if someone can show evidence with logs.
    Can you link even one single target log where one rank of Plaguebearer is doing more damage than Torment the Weak? 1 rank of Plaguebearer is about 5-5.5% extra damage to your Virulent Plague depending on how many ranks you already have.

    So if your Plague is doing about 14% of your damage, then 0.7% of your total damage is from 1 rank of Plaguebearer. Torment the Weak is usually at about 1-2% damage on single target on most logs. You can look at just about any log with Torment the Weak to see that. Here's one log chosen at random:

    https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...-done&source=6

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rothulean1 View Post
    They did. But probably still the best to get flat stats? At least I would think so.



    Unholy did get a buff. It was just undocumented: Dark Arbiter's duration now starts when she begins casting. That was a fairly good buff overall it seems (comparing 7.2.5 Unholy to 7.3 Unholy on WCL).

    Edit: It was also a buff we didnt have to wait for the Crucible to receive. =P
    I dunno when this happened, but they also made the shambler take the lead out of his ass when he moves. I was really happy when I saw that.

  13. #33
    Deleted
    As Slagge already said. Raidbots has updated their 'Compare Relics' tool. Its really easy to sim all combinations of the relic to see which combination of Tier 2 and Tier 3 is overall the best.

    I agree with paraalso that just going for the best trait on the left or the right and ignoring the 2nd Tier Trait might not be the ideal way.

  14. #34
    Shadow traits are all ridiculously strong, literally only if your shadow side forces you into 2 defensive traits in t3 it -might- not be worth taking and even then if you magically roll Torment the Weak, it doesn't matter what your t3 trait is.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Coldvibes View Post
    Shadow traits are all ridiculously strong, literally only if your shadow side forces you into 2 defensive traits in t3 it -might- not be worth taking and even then if you magically roll Torment the Weak, it doesn't matter what your t3 trait is.
    My 905 Plaguebearer has the 2nd trait Torment Weak, is really that good? o.O

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by VeteranoNoob View Post
    My 905 Plaguebearer has the 2nd trait Torment Weak, is really that good? o.O
    It's the best trait for Unholy, so yes it's really good to have there. Use raidbots to sim it, they make it really easy

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Maxweii View Post
    It's the best trait for Unholy, so yes it's really good to have there. Use raidbots to sim it, they make it really easy
    TYVM! Gonna try it out

  18. #38
    Just found YT video with guide for Frost and Unholy DK and Netherlight Crucible. Guy said that Torment the Weak is the best choice but I'm wondering if its stacking when you got, for example Torment from Shadow Relic and from Iron Relic, etc?
    In spite of all SECOND ROW is most important for Unholy (prob.)

    Edit.
    I forgot - is it true that shadow dmg from NC is scaling with our mastery?
    Last edited by Tr0xa; 2017-09-15 at 10:54 AM.

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tr0xa View Post
    Just found YT video with guide for Frost and Unholy DK and Netherlight Crucible. Guy said that Torment the Weak is the best choice but I'm wondering if its stacking when you got, for example Torment from Shadow Relic and from Iron Relic, etc?
    In spite of all SECOND ROW is most important for Unholy (prob.)

    Edit.
    I forgot - is it true that shadow dmg from NC is scaling with our mastery?
    They do stack. For example, you have 2 x "Torment the Weak" - you're getting 3000 Vers during Concordance. 2 x "Shadowbind" does twice the damage per proc, and so on.

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Lolgo View Post
    They do stack. For example, you have 2 x "Torment the Weak" - you're getting 3000 Vers during Concordance. 2 x "Shadowbind" does twice the damage per proc, and so on.
    Thanks, this is really amazing information!

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