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  1. #1461

  2. #1462
    Quote Originally Posted by Sormine View Post
    Do you guys honestly feel a business has the right to refuse service based solely on sex? If yes, how do you feel about businesses who refuse service based on race?
    Yes, you should be able to refuse service for anything you want. No one has the right to any private business services. Trust me there will be consequences a business will pay for doing what they do.

  3. #1463
    The Unstoppable Force Mayhem's Avatar
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    So for all the people who think this is fine, just imagine if every and i mean literally every private business would do this. So no one could be openly gay because they would not recieve any service anywhere unless from companies owned by gay people. Companies which obviously wouldn't be running for long as no one would sell them shit to work with.

    Also, why stop at gay people? Let's refuse to sell to women unless accompanied by a man, nothing wrong with that then. Let's refuse to hire women while we're at it because discrimination is fine if it's done by private companies, they have every right to do so, woohooo fuck civil rights and women rights.

    @Iliyra @-aiko- @Machismo

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    Quote Originally Posted by Solarflash View Post
    Yes, you should be able to refuse service for anything you want. No one has the right to any private business services. Trust me there will be consequences a business will pay for doing what they do.
    Unless the people don't care or at worst agree, and suddenly minorities are fucked again, yay!

    What about business' that have a quasi monopoly in the region?
    Quote Originally Posted by ash
    So, look um, I'm not a grief counselor, but if it's any consolation, I have had to kill and bury loved ones before. A bunch of times actually.
    Quote Originally Posted by PC2 View Post
    I never said I was knowledge-able and I wouldn't even care if I was the least knowledge-able person and the biggest dumb-ass out of all 7.8 billion people on the planet.

  4. #1464
    With support from the Trump Justice Department, a Colorado baker who describes himself as a “cake artist” is arguing to the U.S. Supreme Court that he should be allowed to refuse to supply a wedding cake to a gay couple, despite a state law prohibiting discrimination by businesses on the basis of sexual orientation. He argues that his religious objection to gay marriage entitles him to protection under the 1st Amendment.

    Jack Phillips may be utterly sincere in his opposition to same-sex marriage. But a ruling permitting him to opt out of such an important anti-discrimination law on the grounds of free speech or freedom of religion would undermine the enforcement of laws against all sorts of discrimination in restaurants, hotels and other so-called public accommodations.

    Phillips, his lawyers and the Justice Department emphasized in their arguments that it was a “custom” cake Phillips refused to bake for Charlie Craig and David Mullins when they came into his shop in 2012.

    Creating such an artistic cake, Phillips’ lawyers say, is a form of speech; it is “not just baking batter and applying icing from a tub.” If he were compelled to provide the cake, Colorado would be in effect compelling him to use the “expressive” art form of cake-baking to express a message he didn’t agree with. (According to the Colorado Court of Appeals, which ruled against Phillips, the couple left after Phillips conveyed this information “without discussing with Phillips any details of their wedding cake.”)


    http://www.latimes.com/opinion/edito...913-story.html

    The Supreme Court is going to say that a business can't refuse the patronage of gay people. I'd bet $50 on it.

    But yes, somebody's rights are going to get trampled on when they rule, there's no way around it.
    .

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  5. #1465
    The Unstoppable Force Mayhem's Avatar
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    Discrimination thanks to freedom of speech, brilliant.
    Quote Originally Posted by ash
    So, look um, I'm not a grief counselor, but if it's any consolation, I have had to kill and bury loved ones before. A bunch of times actually.
    Quote Originally Posted by PC2 View Post
    I never said I was knowledge-able and I wouldn't even care if I was the least knowledge-able person and the biggest dumb-ass out of all 7.8 billion people on the planet.

  6. #1466
    Elemental Lord sam86's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orbitus View Post
    No, he doesn't. It is in their state laws that they cannot deny gay people, it is protected by Colorado State law. If he is a business that provides goods to the public, he isn't a private business.
    ehm he does ? If i want to close my shop today and just spend it naked drinking chicken soup i'm pretty sure i can, what i can't do is take ur money then deny u service, as long i didn't take money, i'm free to not serve u
    also the reason he refused to is wrong, he is free to refuse since he is the owner of his own shop
    The beginning of wisdom is the statement 'I do not know.' The person who cannot make that statement is one who will never learn anything. And I have prided myself on my ability to learn
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  7. #1467
    Quote Originally Posted by sam86 View Post
    ehm he does ? If i want to close my shop today and just spend it naked drinking chicken soup i'm pretty sure i can, what i can't do is take ur money then deny u service, as long i didn't take money, i'm free to not serve u
    also the reason he refused to is wrong, he is free to refuse since he is the owner of his own shop
    Yep, that would be on you then, but if you did that at say at a storefront, you would be arrested for indecent exposure. You CANNOT discriminate based on protected classes. Which means in this case, since sexuality is a protected class in the state of Colorado, you cannot deny them based on their sexuality. I don't know why it is so fucking hard to grasp, but we have a constitution, state constitutions, and laws for a fucking reason.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hubcap View Post
    With support from the Trump Justice Department, a Colorado baker who describes himself as a “cake artist” is arguing to the U.S. Supreme Court that he should be allowed to refuse to supply a wedding cake to a gay couple, despite a state law prohibiting discrimination by businesses on the basis of sexual orientation. He argues that his religious objection to gay marriage entitles him to protection under the 1st Amendment.

    Jack Phillips may be utterly sincere in his opposition to same-sex marriage. But a ruling permitting him to opt out of such an important anti-discrimination law on the grounds of free speech or freedom of religion would undermine the enforcement of laws against all sorts of discrimination in restaurants, hotels and other so-called public accommodations.

    Phillips, his lawyers and the Justice Department emphasized in their arguments that it was a “custom” cake Phillips refused to bake for Charlie Craig and David Mullins when they came into his shop in 2012.

    Creating such an artistic cake, Phillips’ lawyers say, is a form of speech; it is “not just baking batter and applying icing from a tub.” If he were compelled to provide the cake, Colorado would be in effect compelling him to use the “expressive” art form of cake-baking to express a message he didn’t agree with. (According to the Colorado Court of Appeals, which ruled against Phillips, the couple left after Phillips conveyed this information “without discussing with Phillips any details of their wedding cake.”)


    http://www.latimes.com/opinion/edito...913-story.html

    The Supreme Court is going to say that a business can't refuse the patronage of gay people. I'd bet $50 on it.

    But yes, somebody's rights are going to get trampled on when they rule, there's no way around it.
    Sorry, but no one has the right to discriminate, especially on protected classes.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Ahovv View Post
    Should I be allowed to refuse service to Neo-Nazis?
    Since Neo-Nazis aren't a protected class, yes you can.

  8. #1468
    Bloodsail Admiral Krawu's Avatar
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    I think the baker should be allowed to refuse service to anyone for any reason, but it this shit then makes it to the media (or their yelp page) I don't want to hear them bitching about the business-destroying fallout.

  9. #1469
    Elemental Lord sam86's Avatar
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    Again that is how private work goes since ages, I have a shop, I sell goods, I can refuse to sell u today because i woke up a bee stung me and u look like a bee to me, i didn't take ur money so i didn't scam u, i have my private owned shop i have every right to refuse anyone to sell goods just because i can, and if u say because 'public right' then this turns every little thing that happens anywhere as public 'service'
    The beginning of wisdom is the statement 'I do not know.' The person who cannot make that statement is one who will never learn anything. And I have prided myself on my ability to learn
    Thrall
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  10. #1470
    Quote Originally Posted by sam86 View Post
    ehm he does ? If i want to close my shop today and just spend it naked drinking chicken soup i'm pretty sure i can, what i can't do is take ur money then deny u service, as long i didn't take money, i'm free to not serve u
    also the reason he refused to is wrong, he is free to refuse since he is the owner of his own shop
    Cant you make any comparisons that actually would be near the source?

    If you close your shop for a day, you close the shop for EVERYONE, you dont discriminate anyone.

    As for the popular Muslim Restaurante compares:
    Muslim Restaurants probably dont serve Pork to ANYONE, so they dont discriminate anyone.

  11. #1471
    The Lightbringer Perkunas's Avatar
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    I'm a liberal and I completely support this person's religious freedom to not make a gay wedding cake as per Leviticus so long as they also do not make wedding cakes for tailors who mix fabrics, barbers/beauticians who cut hair and beards, and shellfish fishermen/shellfish retailers/shellfish-eaters as also outlined in Leviticus to be abominations unto their lord. If they don't then they are just being fucking bigots and don't deserve protection under religious freedom.
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  12. #1472
    Quote Originally Posted by sam86 View Post
    Again that is how private work goes since ages, I have a shop, I sell goods, I can refuse to sell u today because i woke up a bee stung me and u look like a bee to me, i didn't take ur money so i didn't scam u, i have my private owned shop i have every right to refuse anyone to sell goods just because i can, and if u say because 'public right' then this turns every little thing that happens anywhere as public 'service'
    No, it hasn't. Otherwise you would still see the "No Negros Allowed" signs still. If that is your excuse, that I look like a bee, that is not a protected class. But in Colorado, Sexuality is a protected class, same as Race, Religion, Gender, etc.

  13. #1473
    The Unstoppable Force Mayhem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Krawu View Post
    I think the baker should be allowed to refuse service to anyone for any reason, but it this shit then makes it to the media (or their yelp page) I don't want to hear them bitching about the business-destroying fallout.
    What if they gain business because of like-minded people supporting their stance?
    Quote Originally Posted by ash
    So, look um, I'm not a grief counselor, but if it's any consolation, I have had to kill and bury loved ones before. A bunch of times actually.
    Quote Originally Posted by PC2 View Post
    I never said I was knowledge-able and I wouldn't even care if I was the least knowledge-able person and the biggest dumb-ass out of all 7.8 billion people on the planet.

  14. #1474
    The Lightbringer Perkunas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mayhem View Post
    What if they gain business because of like-minded people supporting their stance?
    That means that people are even shittier human beings than even I figured.
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  15. #1475
    The Unstoppable Force Mayhem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Perkunas View Post
    That means that people are even shittier human beings than even I figured.
    Why do you think protected class is a thing?
    Quote Originally Posted by ash
    So, look um, I'm not a grief counselor, but if it's any consolation, I have had to kill and bury loved ones before. A bunch of times actually.
    Quote Originally Posted by PC2 View Post
    I never said I was knowledge-able and I wouldn't even care if I was the least knowledge-able person and the biggest dumb-ass out of all 7.8 billion people on the planet.

  16. #1476
    The Lightbringer Perkunas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mayhem View Post
    Why do you think protected class is a thing?
    Fair point. I just think these people are using "religious freedom" as an excuse for being homophobes.
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  17. #1477
    The Unstoppable Force Mayhem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Perkunas View Post
    Fair point. I just think these people are using "religious freedom" as an excuse for being homophobes.
    Of course, everyone needs an excuse for being an asshole, well apart from those who have no empathy, i mean none.
    Quote Originally Posted by ash
    So, look um, I'm not a grief counselor, but if it's any consolation, I have had to kill and bury loved ones before. A bunch of times actually.
    Quote Originally Posted by PC2 View Post
    I never said I was knowledge-able and I wouldn't even care if I was the least knowledge-able person and the biggest dumb-ass out of all 7.8 billion people on the planet.

  18. #1478
    Quote Originally Posted by sam86 View Post
    Again that is how private work goes since ages, I have a shop, I sell goods, I can refuse to sell u today because i woke up a bee stung me and u look like a bee to me, i didn't take ur money so i didn't scam u, i have my private owned shop i have every right to refuse anyone to sell goods just because i can, and if u say because 'public right' then this turns every little thing that happens anywhere as public 'service'
    You don't have every right according to law. If you put up a sign that says "No Asians" and enforce that sign, good luck in court. Every right has it's limitations, this is one of the basic limitations.
    The wise wolf who's pride is her wisdom isn't so sharp as drunk.

  19. #1479
    Dreadlord yoma's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orbitus View Post
    The bolded part is not protected by laws. In Colorado sexuality is a protected class. Hate speech isn't.

    That is the difference.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Within the law, yes, they can serve whom they want. They can't go around and say, I am not serving blacks anymore, same with gays in Colorado. This would be a violation of the 14th amendment and the Civil Rights act of 1964.
    You didn't read closely enough into my scenario. The man wanted a cake that brodcast his heterosexuality. For the sake of argument, let's remove the issue of hatred. He merely wants a cake that in some way rubs the gay owners in the wrong way for whatever reason. Now his request is protected by law (protection of sexuality, as you've described, although I assume Colorado law protects minority groups as opposed to majority, but I digress) and the gay couple are forced to make the cake regardless.

    I'm sorry, but in this instance, the use of force in a private business feels wrong to me. The man is ignorant and biased and from what else I read, a little "touched" by religion in all the wrong ways. I understand that businesses, privately owned or not, must abide by state and federal laws - I'm not arguing that at all.

    My personal opinion is that this whole situation - taking the man to court and pressing so hard on this - sheds more of a net negative light on the whole thing. They had every right to sue of course, but I think in this instance, their making that man's ignorance visible to the public outside of the legal system would have been far more effective, both in terms of damaging his business and in bringing support to their cause from both "sides" standing on this issue.

    TL;DR,

    Acceptance is an uphill battle and of course needs to be fought on every front. This isn't even an issue of picking your battles, rather pick your strategy for those battles.
    "It is not wise to judge others based on your own preconceptions or by their appearances."

  20. #1480
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hubcap View Post
    The Supreme Court is going to say that a business can't refuse the patronage of gay people. I'd bet $50 on it.
    It's basically going to rest on what the customization was, and whether it qualifies as the baker's free expression or not, or just the product of their shop. If the couple wanted a cake with giant penises or specific messaging, he could make a solid case, and I'd agree he could refuse to make those particular decorations. If he's just refusing to take an order for a standard custom cake, then not, since that's just "here's the 8 varieties of cake we can do, the 3 types of icing options which we can do in basically any color (your choice), and here's the decoration styles we offer." That's "custom" in the same way that telling the waiter at a steak house that you want it medium-rare and with fries for your side is "custom". Not a valid claim of free expression by the chef, or the baker in this case.

    Quote Originally Posted by LanToaster View Post
    Cant you make any comparisons that actually would be near the source?

    If you close your shop for a day, you close the shop for EVERYONE, you dont discriminate anyone.

    As for the popular Muslim Restaurante compares:
    Muslim Restaurants probably dont serve Pork to ANYONE, so they dont discriminate anyone.
    And if we wanted to extend that to this, imagine the guy ran a cupcake shop, and didn't do wedding cakes. Refusing to make a wedding cake because it's not what he provides is reasonable, and what he does with all customers by rote. No discrimination.

    But this guy specifically did wedding cakes.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by yoma View Post
    My personal opinion is that this whole situation - taking the man to court and pressing so hard on this - sheds more of a net negative light on the whole thing. They had every right to sue of course, but I think in this instance, their making that man's ignorance visible to the public outside of the legal system would have been far more effective, both in terms of damaging his business and in bringing support to their cause from both "sides" standing on this issue.
    The original plaintiffs aren't the ones pushing this. They sued in State court, and won. Everything past that point has been the bakery owner filing appeals and pushing for more attention.


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