EU Tries to fine Poland $75 Mil. Poland sends Germany $1Trillion bill for WWII

[caervek]

Just what about the word country don't you understand?

None of it. On the other hand, YOU posted that you believed none of the Ukrainian refugees had fled their country due to persecution (false), YOU posted that you believed none of the Ukrainian refugees had fled their country due to war (false), YOU posted that you believed none of the Ukrainian refugees had fled their country due to violence (false).

[Slant]

Yes but the eastern Ukrainians fleeing the war can't exactly move to the west can they, that's where the people who started persecuting them in the first place live!

Okay, so the ambassador saying they're not refugees is going to be ignored by you, because... he wants them in West Ukraine so he can properly persecute them? How's that logic working for you irl? You'd expect he was happy they left the country...

[caervek]

Okay, so the ambassador saying they're not refugees is going to be ignored by you, because...

Take a step back and look objectively. If we were talking about a country in Africa, and the ambassador stated that the people fleeing the part of the country his government were shelling with artillery, were not refugees just economic migrants looking for work, would you believe it?

The civil war in Ukraine broke out in the first place because of the new laws the post-coup government passed that persecuted the eastern Ukrainians*, they are hardly going to want to leave the war zone they live in and build a new life among the people that destroyed their old life lol.


*And boy was that a stupid stupid stupid decision, "hey guys I've got a great idea, let's pass a load of new laws that turn our Russian speaking population into second class citizens! Who cares that that's like 1/3 of our population, it's not like they are already mad about the coup or anything, it's not like it's going to piss them off and make loads of them fight for separation or anything, lol", retards.

[Mayhem]

None of it. On the other hand, YOU posted that you believed none of the Ukrainian refugees had fled their country due to persecution (false), YOU posted that you believed none of the Ukrainian refugees had fled their country due to war (false), YOU posted that you believed none of the Ukrainian refugees had fled their country due to violence (false).

You don't understand anything about the word country? Well that explains it then.

Oh, right, no i agree there are ukrainian refugees in poland, about 50 or so, but far from hundreds of thousands or even millions like you keep claiming.

So they are happy with getting only work permits instead of being granted asylum because they fear the country they were forced to leave just so much that they are ok with being sent back at any given time?

[Acidbaron]

Okay, so the ambassador saying they're not refugees is going to be ignored by you, because... he wants them in West Ukraine so he can properly persecute them? How's that logic working for you irl? You'd expect he was happy they left the country...

A brexiteer arguing in favor for taking refugees, hell has frozen over. Wanted to point out that little gem and be on my merry way. Although brits have always been more about how to tell other nations how to act then to care about their own actions and nation.

*whistles*

[PL-Cibo]

Because when a country loses 90% of its intelligence in half a decade they have a lot of human resources (or infrastructural and financial resources since Poland was a ruin after the war) to train the next generation. And it totally wouldn't continue to have ripple effects just a handful of generations later.

Oh it has, but not on the scope the poster liked to believe. And their schooling system is still shit. Btw. Carisma and Leaders still haven't got anything to do with intelligence. What was lost is personified knowledge. Either there weren't able to or haven't even tried to rebuild it until the fall of the iron curtain. This still doesn't mean that today they don't have intelligent scientists, workers etc.

Yeah, they could have just done so with Red Army inside their territory. Opposing Russian rule worked splendid for Czechoslovakia. And that happened after Stalin's death. Also, your amazing argument about the Marshal Plan in no way supports the earlier argument.

In a time when the allied nations where still at large in Europe they would have had a better chance to appeal to the americans (the only power who hasn't lost significant military rescourses) and not get into the same situation. But well, these are what if stories anyway. (And it was the answer to a whatif story, so thats ok, a whatif story you strangely did not quote...)

EU, not Germany.

Germany not EU, i don't talk about payouts from the eu, i talk about building fucking factories and using local workers for mass production in the early 90's. I talk about building demand for secondary services and a supporting budding export industry(for their own gain of course)

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Why are you lying again? You claimed this 3 times, and I asked you 3 times for your source which you couldn't give; we provided you 2 sources for 2 different years for 3 and 33 refugees and you still keep on lying. Why do you love lying so much?

Or is 33 refugees the brunt of the surge?

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Don't get me wrong, but this number gets tossed around all the time with no one providing any sources for it. Can you link a source for the 300k refugees? I would really love to know, i just cannot find any.

Of course, not the best sources but well, you have to begin somewhere:

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...pot-for-poland
https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...genous-society
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainians_in_Poland (and it's cited soruces)

[Babadoo]

Ukrainians are white and Christian so they can't be refugees. Cmon people I thought you knew better.

[Deleted]

You don't get it why this is important? Ok, I'll try it slow and step by step.

Poland wants to use the ukrainian people as a scapegoat to not take other refugees. Ok, fair deal, i can agree with that.

If poland already takes lots of refugees in, i am comfortable with it.

The thing is: Refugee is not just a word, its a clearly defined legal status, not some label you can just put on anything you like.

So if these people are legal migrants with a work permit or refugees makes a HUGE difference.

And again, the article you linked speaks of working permits, not of refugees. Not my fault they don't know how to use words.

Still waiting for a source for refugees in Poland. Not migrant workers.

True. 1 million + refugees left ukraine from war-zone/eastern part of ukraine, the russian part of the country. According to the UN.

Fed. Russia took in 1 million+ refugees. According to the UN. Basically almost every refugee went to Russia, the country on their side.

Those who go to Poland are indeed just economic migrants no different than Polish plumbers in England.

[caervek]

there are ukrainian refugees in poland, about 50 or so, but far from hundreds of thousands or even millions like you keep claiming

I never claimed millions, in fact I linked the articles citing hundreds of thousands to refute the person who did.

[Mayhem]

I never claimed millions, in fact I linked the articles citing hundreds of thousands to refute the person who did.

Still wrong but who cares at this point, you made up your mind and obviously no amount of facts will change that. Say how is life living in a bubble?

[caervek]

Still wrong

Says you, but the facts don't lie, or are you saying all those mainstream news organisations just made the stories about Ukrainian refugees up to inconvenience you? :P

Maybe you should tell them they got the stories wrong, and while you're at it maybe you should tell the Oxford English Dictionary and the UNHCR that they have the definition of refugee wrong and they should switch to your special definition instead :P

[Deleted]

EU is far far far and I mean very very far from being integrated. At best its Germany and its colonies which is what UK couldn't swallow and decided to leave. Everyone else defines themselves as Germans/Spanish/French etc and no country whatsoever thinks in a way that benefits the EU as a whole. Germans think like Germans French like French etc. Anyone who can't follow is treated like a bad guest in the table or as a malfunctioning child that must be treated bad and shooed from the table.

Its all about money and who is in control. I don't expect this to be fixed for as long as esp Germany treats other countries as its bitches. Its globally agreed but only whispered for the moment that what Germany failed to do with 2 world wars its managing to do it now. Full control (bar UK but tbh if it wasnt for Brittons we would be typing this in german now).

So yeah today Im not going to try and convince the average german that atrocities will remain atrocities 1000 years from now and that nazism is bad etc. I know its old news for the average German so no point to start such an argument.

But don't expect any country to ever forget to be honest. And if you know anything about Polish history you will know its a country of very decent people that has been fucked by both communism and nazism. So yeah sorry for not letting you forget that the BOSS suit you are wearing now is actually made by the same company that was supplying uniforms to the SS.

wow... what a load of bullshit.

I fucking hate it when poor countries blame their inability to follow rules on others.
Stop making it sound as if Germany or France is forcing anyone. Poland and others are in the EU because they'd probably be shit-tier third world countries without it. The richer north/west doesn't force itself on them and they don't expect anything out of them other than to follow the very same rules they have to follow themselves.

Why did they even become EU members? Greed?
Let's stop being grumpy just because money isn't free.

Anyway, if anything you said is true, that means most of the money the EU gave you came from Germany and France etc.
Pay back the development funds then...Why didn't Poland refuse the hundreds of billions of $$$?

A per capita GDP increase of roughly 50% after accession and people there still believe the EU is bad for them, tsk.

[Mayhem]

Says you, but the facts don't lie, or are you saying all those mainstream news organisations just made the stories about Ukrainian refugees up to inconvenience you? :P

Maybe you should tell them they got the stories wrong, and while you're at it maybe you should tell the Oxford English Dictionary and the UNHCR that they have the definition of refugee wrong and they should switch to your special definition instead :P

You conveniently never answered my question why the ukrainian "refugees" don't claim asylum, but i guess it goes against your made up narrative no public organisation, INCLUDING the UN confirmed. So let's trust the news agancies instead of the UN while claiming they are using the right definition while the UN apparently doesn't.

I mean you stopped making sense a while ago but now your arguing against the UN while using their definition.

[Deleted]

Interesting that you mentioned rules. Like for example not having your biggest companies like VW and Siemens to mention a couple cheat other member states with anti competitive advantages. Rules like not faking your emissions to achieve higher exports in USA.Rules like not banning member states from buying arms from wherever the fuck they want if they don't like your junk. Rules like not selling arms to enemy nations in order to force other EU members to buy the German junk that is even inferior to third class country weaponry. Rules like not bending fiscal numbers to suit your economy while deciding everyone else must have austerity to follow you. Rules like not saying bollocks that 1 euro = 2 marks when entering the eurozone. RULES LIKE NOT HAVING A GERMAN BANK A T AS THE CUCKING ECB.

Yeah let's talk about rules and how germans write them and then ignore them unless they have to impose them to others.

Nice bedtime story.

Nothing to say about the money Poland gained and used from the EU, along with all the other benefits, to nearly tripple it's GDP in just 5 years, I see.

lol @ emission scandal btw. Wrong it was indeed. Doesn't really have anything to do with Germany other than it is in their interest to keep the damage small. What about Fiat and Mitsibushi that do the same shit though? They are just some Corporations doing some dirty Corporation stuff imho.

Anyway, let me ask you why it's possible for Germany to control everything in your scenario? Because no one says no to the money. Odd.

[Mehrunes]

Dictionary def: a person who has been forced to leave their country in order to escape war, persecution, or natural disaster.

UN def: A refugee is someone who has been forced to flee his or her country because of persecution, war, or violence. A refugee has a well-founded fear of persecution for reasons of race, religion, nationality, political opinion or membership in a particular social group. Most likely, they cannot return home or are afraid to do so. War and ethnic, tribal and religious violence are leading causes of refugees fleeing their countries.

There you go, both the dictionary and UNHCR class the Ukrainian refugees as refugees, even the ones who are willing to get a job and contribute to their host country.

Again, stark majority of Ukrainians in Poland are from western Ukraine. There is no war in western Ukraine. Can't recall any national disasters or persecution either.

He seems to feel that if a refugee gets a job then that means they were never a refugee to begin with just somebody traveling looking for work lol.

But most of them were just somebodies looking for work. Keyword being just. Because they weren't refugees even before they found jobs. Neither have they ever applied. They came in just for jobs, mostly for shorter periods over a continuous employment, because it pays better than in Ukraine and it's easy for Ukrainians to get a job in Poland compared to other non-EU foreigners.

I understand the desire to brand European refugees as just travelling workers, because it's uncomfortable to acknowledge that in the 21st century we have yet another war in Europe displacing people, but anyone who tries to pretend they don't exist just looks foolish.

And yet western Europe had no problem taking in actual Ukrainian refugees.

None of it. On the other hand, YOU posted that you believed none of the Ukrainian refugees had fled their country due to persecution (false), YOU posted that you believed none of the Ukrainian refugees had fled their country due to war (false), YOU posted that you believed none of the Ukrainian refugees had fled their country due to violence (false).

Except you tried to claim that Ukrainians fleeing from the conflict zone couldn't just move to safer areas of Ukraine because they'd face persecution there, just so you could stretch things into meeting the definition, without even attempting to explain why the hell would the Ukrainians face persecution by Ukraine when they are on the same side.

Oh it has, but not on the scope the poster liked to believe. And their schooling system is still shit.

https://edexcellence.net/commentary/...tem-is-no-joke And that was few years ago.

Btw. Carisma and Leaders still haven't got anything to do with intelligence. What was lost is personified knowledge. Either there weren't able to or haven't even tried to rebuild it until the fall of the iron curtain. This still doesn't mean that today they don't have intelligent scientists, workers etc.

I.e. the people to train the next ones, which is what I replied to in the first place...

In a time when the allied nations where still at large in Europe they would have had a better chance to appeal to the americans (the only power who hasn't lost significant military rescourses) and not get into the same situation. But well, these are what if stories anyway. (And it was the answer to a whatif story, so thats ok, a whatif story you strangely did not quote...)

Appealing to the country that withdrew the acknowledgment of the pre-war government in exile and agreed for Poland to become USSR's puppet just to appease Stalin, shitting on Woodrow Wilson's grave in the process, would have totally worked wonders. Especially over something that was not only just a financial issue, but one that saved them money. And your answer to that what if story was even more stupid than the story itself, so I strangely replied to the stupider thing.

Germany not EU, i don't talk about payouts from the eu, i talk about building fucking factories and using local workers for mass production in the early 90's. I talk about building demand for secondary services and a supporting budding export industry(for their own gain of course)

OK then. The thing is, Germany building some factories is not even remotely comparable to the impact EU funds had, be it in terms of infrastructure or industry.

[ati87]

The entire Ukraine thing is nothing but trolling...a reflection at best

[caervek]

stark majority of Ukrainians in Poland are from western Ukraine.

Indeed but the point being discussed was the eastern Ukrainian refugees.

But most of them were just somebodies looking for work.

If you are referring to all of the Ukrainians in Poland and not just the refugees that have come over since the war then of course that's correct, but it's twisting things a bit to suit the argument.

And yet western Europe had no problem taking in actual Ukrainian refugees.

Perhaps but Poland has born the brunt of the surge, which makes sense as they share a culture/history and the languages are more compatible. Asking it to take more refugees from Syria who don't share anything is a bit silly really. It makes sense for Poland to take the Ukrainian refuges and for the middle eastern immigrants to be redistributed elsewhere.

Except you tried to claim that Ukrainians fleeing from the conflict zone couldn't just move to safer areas of Ukraine because they'd face persecution there

Well obviously, of course they can't. The "safer" areas are in the WEST of the country, the part that began persecuting them in the first place causing the civil war.

[Zython]

I find it both hilariously un-self-aware and agonizingly smug how modern-day Poland thinks it has any right to condemn the past aggressions of fascists. If they want reparations for the acts of fascists, maybe stop BEING fascists?

[Rennadrel]

I find it both hilariously un-self-aware and agonizingly smug how modern-day Poland thinks it has any right to condemn the past aggressions of fascists. If they want reparations for the acts of fascists, maybe stop BEING fascists?

I am pretty sure that every self governing nation has a right not to bring in refugees, or pick and choose who they let in and how many.

[Slant]

I am pretty sure that every self governing nation has a right not to bring in refugees, or pick and choose who they let in and how many.

Yes they have. And Poland chose to join the EU and contribute. Taking in refugees is part of that contribution. It baffles me that people are surprised the EU isn't really a cash cow. Yes, it's a project. And yes, everyone has to chip in. What a big surprise.