KJ Nerfs

[Lellybaby]

We killed it for the first time last night on heroic.

A combination of having 15 people and the nerfs allowed us to push into phase 3 for the first time on our first pull of the night.

He was dead 6 pulls after.

I'm happy he's dead, I'm not sure how guilds can spend weeks wiping on a boss. (We entered up with about 45 wipes, 30 of which I was there for), and it really felt draining. Guess I'm just not so much into the raiding scene anymore.

[Grindfactor]

We killed it for the first time last night on heroic.

A combination of having 15 people and the nerfs allowed us to push into phase 3 for the first time on our first pull of the night.

He was dead 6 pulls after.

I'm happy he's dead, I'm not sure how guilds can spend weeks wiping on a boss. (We entered up with about 45 wipes, 30 of which I was there for), and it really felt draining. Guess I'm just not so much into the raiding scene anymore.

I know exactly where you're coming from. The whole tomb itself felt draining.... and my raiders took a hit as well. They've been solid and kept together for over 6 years now and this was the first raid i seen them actually start to sway on morale of a raid. The nerfs to KJ i honestly feel were needed as its nearing the new raid and its a good morale boost for some to finally get him. We had around 83ish wipes i believe it was before we finally got him. Only took us getting to the final phase twice to get it though. People hitting the wall on Avatar i think make people have less patience for the shitstorm of KJ.

[Zachysaurus]

Coming from a casual guild that took over 100 wipes to get our first heroic kill last Sunday, I feel the nerfs plus the crucible buffs made the fight significantly easier. We were struggling to beat the 2nd Armageddon in P1 and had to hard stop boss dps to kill the 2nd tank add in P2 before dark phase when we killed it. Then last night, with a bit larger group due to some casuals (including a hunter doing 300k dps) we were able to end P1 before the singularity even spawned, and we hit the dark phase right as the 2nd set of reflection adds died. The difference was massive. It was almost 60 seconds faster this week with a bigger group and much less overall dps.

I think the HP nerf was not needed, at least not on Heroic (don't know for mythic, will never see it), the add HP nerf is fine, and the armageddon change just makes the worst part of the fight a little more tolerable

But hey, at least I can say our guild got AOTC pre-nerf, which is kinda neat I guess

[ping-pong]

It's a shame how some people feel that if they formed a mythic raiding group, they should by default be able to kill the end boss while it's current. What sense of accomplishment do you guys have when you kill it with many nerfs and with way better gear than what was needed even before the nerfs? I mean, what sort of progress is that if they are nerfing the boss while you get superior gear, and the process repeats until you are finally able to kill it? That's not progress, you're not progressing anything, they are changing the circumstances until you are able to do it. It's not mythic difficulty anymore.

You already have buffs in terms of youtube videos, raid comps, months of farming gear. Why not be honorable about it and demand from Blizzard no nerfs, so you can experience the same boss that was designed as real mythic boss? Why shouldn't end boss (or any m boss) be very hard even at the end of the tier? How are you a mythic raider if you need the difficulty turned down almost to hc level to beat it? Don't be too defensive about it, just think for a second.

[Balinus]

It's a shame how some people feel that if they formed a mythic raiding group, they should by default be able to kill the end boss while it's current. What sense of accomplishment do you guys have when you kill it with many nerfs and with way better gear than what was needed even before the nerfs? I mean, what sort of progress is that if they are nerfing the boss while you get superior gear, and the process repeats until you are finally able to kill it? That's not progress, you're not progressing anything, they are changing the circumstances until you are able to do it. It's not mythic difficulty anymore.

You already have buffs in terms of youtube videos, raid comps, months of farming gear. Why not be honorable about it and demand from Blizzard no nerfs, so you can experience the same boss that was designed as real mythic boss? Why shouldn't end boss (or any m boss) be very hard even at the end of the tier? How are you a mythic raider if you need the difficulty turned down almost to hc level to beat it? Don't be too defensive about it, just think for a second.

It is what the game does. Extra hard to safisty the professional gamers, then tune down a bit so mere mortals can do it [ that arent as good or have less time to spend on it ], then make it more easy for those who arent able to kill the way it is at that moment.

[Keltas]

It's a shame how some people feel that if they formed a mythic raiding group, they should by default be able to kill the end boss while it's current. What sense of accomplishment do you guys have when you kill it with many nerfs and with way better gear than what was needed even before the nerfs? I mean, what sort of progress is that if they are nerfing the boss while you get superior gear, and the process repeats until you are finally able to kill it? That's not progress, you're not progressing anything, they are changing the circumstances until you are able to do it. It's not mythic difficulty anymore.

You already have buffs in terms of youtube videos, raid comps, months of farming gear. Why not be honorable about it and demand from Blizzard no nerfs, so you can experience the same boss that was designed as real mythic boss? Why shouldn't end boss (or any m boss) be very hard even at the end of the tier? How are you a mythic raider if you need the difficulty turned down almost to hc level to beat it? Don't be too defensive about it, just think for a second.

I'd be fine with no nerfs until the tier is over if they tuned the boss to be actually killable. World first guilds couldn't even do it before it was nerfed, and even then it required very very specific composition and excluded upwards of HALF the specs in the entire game.

It should be tuned highly, but not for literally <100 people. If half the specs in the game can't clear it without massive nerfs then it was tuned way too far.

[munkeyinorbit]

Why is this always the default response in this situation smh

Because it is the correct response. It is the perfect response to the toxic people who insist that nothing needs a nerf.

[durrtygoodz]

Because it is the correct response. It is the perfect response to the toxic people who insist that nothing needs a nerf.

You're using the word toxic wrong.

[Marrilaife]

How are you a mythic raider if you need the difficulty turned down almost to hc level to beat it?

Talk about strawman. Mythic Gul'dan even after all the nerfs, was still not "almost heroic difficulty". Mythic Helya, even after all the nerfs and with NH gear, wasn't close to her "heroic difficulty", and I killed heroic Helya in the first week (before it got nerfed so actually non-mythic raiders could kill her, which I deem fair, heroic difficulty is for heroic guilds). Mythic KJ I didn't see yet and won't see for a long time, but I sincerely doubt he's "barely harder than a hc", it took me 2 weeks to kill HC KJ with a crappy mythic guild that couldn't get past sisters for ages and now can't get past mistress, and I bet mythic KJ won't fall over in 2 weeks of casual progress like he did on hc, no matter the extra ilvls. So how is exactly mythic "dumbed down to heroic level"?

You already have buffs in terms of youtube videos, raid comps, months of farming gear.

Most guilds I've been in relied on Fatboss guides. Isn't it telling there is no Fatboss guide to mythic KJ? Just their kill vid.

Raid comps? Most "casual mythic" guilds have no choice of a raid comp, they usually have around 22-25 players with no alts, no splitruns, and no choice of comp except bench a couple of players who either can't attend due to irl or fuckup the most. "Raid comp" is the privilege of top guilds who split run with tons of alts, an advantage many lower progressed guilds do not have and never will.

Months of farming gear? Again, barely matters, top guilds condense the ilvl gains through split runs and nolife mythic+ farm, crucible I understand, top guilds didn't have access to it, but they had extremely high ilvl across a team who farmed for "only" 2-3 weeks, that's the bane of split farming and titanforge, they have in few weeks of hardcore farming what normal guilds will reach in months, and the bosses are already tuned above the gear level they drop.

It's not mythic difficulty anymore.

And who decides what is mythic and what isn't? Blizzard can pull random numbers out of their ass and slap a "mythic" label on it, it will be mythic no matter if it's piss easy (mythic Xavius) or super duper hard (mythic KJ), there is no scientific benchmark to it, there isn't even one inside Blizzard, because all we know Blizzard made some version of mythic KJ, threw it to their "internal tester team", decided "top guilds should be better than our internal testers", beefed up everything about the fight by an unspecified number and then sent live to let Method and Exorsus crack the nut.

I just watched Sco's vid about the pre-pre-nerf KJ, pre world first kill that is. Well if that version of the fight didn't require un-humanly reflexes then I don't know what to say. Blizzard can develop a fight no one can beat, or a fight only beatable by 20 perfectly programmed robots, but that's a bit of an empty exercise, it stops being really a game if it's meant to not be completed. It's like having a shop window with some wares on exposition only to be told "they're not for sale", well then, what's the point?

[KaPe]

Raid comps? Most "casual mythic" guilds have no choice of a raid comp, they usually have around 22-25 players with no alts, no splitruns, and no choice of comp except bench a couple of players who either can't attend due to irl or fuckup the most. "Raid comp" is the privilege of top guilds who split run with tons of alts, an advantage many lower progressed guilds do not have and never will.

I find this part especially funny. Certain people are completely detached from the reality of typical mythic guilds. Many of them barely have any bench at all and are forced to use "bad" classes to even make a raid. Such raid comp easily negates a large part of ilvl advantage they might get through farming and that's even without getting into Titanforging and split runs - which the vast majority doesn't do.

I just watched Sco's vid about the pre-pre-nerf KJ, pre world first kill that is. Well if that version of the fight didn't require un-humanly reflexes then I don't know what to say. Blizzard can develop a fight no one can beat, or a fight only beatable by 20 perfectly programmed robots, but that's a bit of an empty exercise, it stops being really a game if it's meant to not be completed. It's like having a shop window with some wares on exposition only to be told "they're not for sale", well then, what's the point?

We already had people commenting that Method/Exorsus are bunch of whiners when they complained about KJ around World First. It's hard to say how much of that was trolling, but there certainly were some people believing that *best players in the world* should never complain about anything and if they can't kill the boss, it's somehow better for the game. They completely ignore the fact that these people can put as much time in two weeks as others do in several months. Clearly they just need better gear, entitled whiners.

Not to mention that they cannot understand that even if something is killable, it doesn't mean it's well balanced or fun. The fact that some guilds didn't bother to rekill KJ is telling. I don't think this has ever happened before, at least in such scale. Then again, who could blame them. The loot is not worth it. There is no mount. They'd still need hundreds of pulls for a rekill.

Only now is this starting to approach normality. One simply cannot look purely at KJ encounter and forget everything that leads to him. This shit starts at Mistress already. When was the last time when we had an instance with two "final" bosses, both of which needed major nerfs combined with heavy class stacking, and *another* boss which still required hundreds of pulls *unless* she was cheesed through stun immunity - which got fixed. It's absurd design and yet I'm sure there's people who are "happy" for such tuning... even though they most likely never saw it in the first place.

[ping-pong]

comments

I actually wrote a huge reply to the whole thing, but it was waaaaay too long. I'll shorten it a bit. The raid comes out and is cleared of major bugs within few first weeks. If you beat that, congratulations, you have beaten the hardest thing in the game. If the game keeps lowering that difficulty, while giving you more gear, you are beating laughable content compared to the original design.

This is nothing personal to you or other "mythic" raiders. I'm genuinely curious about the logic. Are you aware that when you finally "progress" and kill mythic end boss, the real mythic raiders are selling for gold that same run to players who afk in the corner? While answering questions of fans and watching a tv show with one eye. What does that tell you about the difficulty of what you have just beaten?

Also, doesn't it bug you at least a bit? You're progressing on a boss, figuring things out, and BAAAAAAM they nerf it and you clear it in 5 tries next reset. Where is the joy in that? Like, "we could have had it, why nerf nowww" Come on, man up and try to beat the real thing for once.

- - - Updated - - -

It is what the game does. Extra hard to safisty the professional gamers, then tune down a bit so mere mortals can do it [ that arent as good or have less time to spend on it ], then make it more easy for those who arent able to kill the way it is at that moment.

The game does what market requires. If people stepped up, instead of complained about the difficulty, mythic achievements would truly be achievements. As it is now, it's just something you link in your spare time

[Deleted]

Why is this always the default response in this situation smh

God your transmog is hideous.

[ping-pong]

I'd be fine with no nerfs until the tier is over if they tuned the boss to be actually killable. World first guilds couldn't even do it before it was nerfed, and even then it required very very specific composition and excluded upwards of HALF the specs in the entire game.

It should be tuned highly, but not for literally <100 people. If half the specs in the game can't clear it without massive nerfs then it was tuned way too far.

The solution is to fix classes that are not viable. Difficulty should stay the same though. Of course when they first release it, there can be some impossible things, because they cannot truly test it until it goes live. Few weeks to month after bug fixes, in my opinion, it should stay the same till the end of the raid

[Ehrenpanzer]

Why is this always the default response in this situation smh

Because if you are going to complain about the "ease" of a boss, you had best have beaten it on the hardest difficulty or else you are just talking out of your ass

[durrtygoodz]

God your transmog is hideous.

Typical jelly hater

[Liarparadox]

As for these nerfs, they are good but I think even with them KJ is still a lot harder than gul'dan was.

yeah I agree; even with the nerfs KJ is more difficult than Gul'dan.

[Marrilaife]

Come on, man up and try to beat the real thing for once.

I don't care about "prestige", "e-peen meters" or "exclusivity", I just care to have a mode that will entertain me & my guildies and atm we have none, because heroic is beaten way too fast for that and mythic just makes people quit, I can't make them stay if they don't want to, so it kinda worries me. Raiding isn't a solo endeavour, it's about the people around you. And the problem is even people who have beaten mythic KJ, when they speak about it, they don't sound entertained at all. It's supposed to be a game not a measuring stick for sense of self worth and "how I'm better than other people".

Most people who support super hard mythic mode belong to 2 camps:
- they don't raid mythic anyway or routinely don't finish it, so don't want to feel worse than people who finish it, the less people finish it the better for them
- people who actually finished it so they can actually feel superior to the ones who didn't, the more people are kept out of "their pedestal" the higher their sense of superiority

Actually seeing now that Mistress mythic kills are rolling in after nerfs and crucible, and that supposedly same will happen soon with Avatar and KJ, it means people are actually experiencing content, and that's what game is for, to experience content, have fun, build some fond memories of playing with your guildies and friends. Not to tell yourself "how big ballz I have that I belong to an exclusive club of only x people who have beaten Y boss".

The fact content is gradually nerfed over time means prestige-oriented players will still have their timestamps and their wowprogress rank to show off, thing is, barely anyone cares about it or swoons over it. In a big picture, it's meaningless. If you have to stop having fun, grit your teeth and suffer through a goddamn game, then something is really wrong.

At least top guilds were getting money out of selling boosts for all the sacrifices, nolifing, splits and thousands of wipes. But Blizzard started more and more closing onto the market of rmt and real money boosts. Yeah, boosts for rl money are lame, but I can see the appeal to be a "hardcore gamer" when you're getting $$$ out of it.

Otherwise, it's just completely out of hand how far apart are top guilds from "people who just play the game for fun", even the decently skilled portion of it. Heroic isn't tuned for the guilds that killed mythic Mistress or Avatar just now, post nerfs. Heroic is actually made for guilds that take this long to finish heroic KJ (I just replied to a guy in another thread who is in such guild, he asked should he go mythic, personally I think heroic is just fine for him if it occupied him for 3 months and not 1-2 weeks.)

Blizzard could introduce "legendary" raid mode for all these top guilds and make mythic something closer to the current nerfed state. But it's not worth for them making another mode that maybe 10-50 guilds will use and maybe enjoy. Easier to just make 1 mode and then nerf it to the level top 1% can play it and not only top 0.01%.

To sum it up, WOW is there to provide content for players they can participate in. I'm not against LFR or 4 difficulty modes, I think the more choice people have, the better. Players' range of skill, dedication and generally "caring about a game" is very diverse, so there should be easier and harder types of content. The problem starts when you can't find the content for you.

In TOS the difficulty range was kinda like:
LFR ---- Normal --- Heroic 8/9 -- Heroic KJ - early mythic bosses ------------ late mythic bosses pre-nerfs

The last gap is too big, the gap between Heroic KJ pre-nerf and early mythic bosses was really small while the gap between 5/9 mythic and the rest was too big. Could theoretically do as well with bigger gap in difficulty between normal and hc, but that's details.

Since introducing another mode to fill this big gap in the end isn't feasible, I guess we have to do with "being stuck on x boss until it's nerfed", in cases of most guilds that was Mistress or Avatar.

And I hope in Antorus the difficulty curve is smoother. NH at least had 3 camps: first 3, then middle, then last 3. TOS seemed to be broken into "first 5" and everything else until nerfs started rolling in.

In the end, it's about having fun, too easy content = boring not fun. Too hard content = can't participate so no fun to be had. Players can "step up a bit" but it's delusional to think everyone can reach the same skill ceiling as world top players. Fun in games occurs when you face a moderate challenge, it's a fine line, and gradual nerfs mean bigger portion of the playerbase can tread this line, just some earlier, some later.

For the same reason many solo games have multiple difficulty settings and most pvp games have some form of MMR / matchmaking / ranking system to supposedly match people of similar skill range, it's the same in pvp games, getting stomped or stomping the enemy is not a desirable scenario, there was no challenge in such a match. Maybe one day that bronze player will reach the grandmaster rank, but atm, he needs something for him. In the same manner, a diamond player needs a diamond league and not just be told "if you aren't good enough for master, go back to plat". Plat is too low for him and master is too high.

[Deleted]

Typical jelly hater

I would be worried too if I were you. This mog underlines a clear lack of taste.

[Amantino]

Meh, 2 months is not a lot of time. While you might not need it for heroic, it's sorely needed for Mythic - even if we killed it this reset (which we won't), 2 months of "downtime" between tiers is really not a lot, I'd want 3-4 months personally between end of progression and a new tier to be comfortable. The rate at which content is churned out might please casuals, but it's burning through "high end" raiders at an astonishingly high rates - especially when the two last bosses both are 3-400+ pulls for most guilds at the level where I play (Avatar might be less now with the nerfs though). That might be their goal, though, who knows.

Agree, agree, agree, agreeeeeeeee. This "constant progression" idea blizzard got with releasing content way too fast is ruining this expansion. They need to give breathing room between tiers.

you dont want any downtime? okay, our guild isnt partilarly good, we were like rank 1000 on guldan, but it is really taxing for some people to go progress the whole tier, have 2-3 weeks of tough rekills of the last boss and immediately jump into another 5 months of progresss

I'm glad I see others who share this opinion. Casual guilds getting burned out because they have to progress 52 weeks per year is not something positive. Blizzard needs to chill.

[Marrilaife]

I'm glad I see others who share this opinion. Casual guilds getting burned out because they have to progress 52 weeks per year is not something positive. Blizzard needs to chill.

Blizzard has this awful tendency since at least wotlk:

Expansion lasts 2 years.

Year 1: yay we have content, ship it, rush it out of the door!

Year 2: we're working on the next expansion full time... drought... zzz...

I never understood why rush all that content in year 1? Why not save some of it for year 2, when you don't have the manpower to develop bulky patches because majority of the crew is developing next expansion?

I guess we'll see in Legion, but I fully expect something akin to a usual drought / end of expansion slump in the next year. New expac is gonna be announced at Blizzcon most probably, but it will take time to be alpha & beta tested and then released.

The total amount of content would be the same, but spread in a better manner.