Berekrly "Free Speech Feyival"

[Elba]

@Seranthor's argument is that it's not a uniform standard if multiple individual groups get to determine it for themselves. Like, if the black community and the Muslim community, (or any other marginalized group) disagree on what constitutes racism, then it's not uniform.

Muslim is not a race. The black community decides what is anti black racism. The Native American community decides what is anti NA racism.

What if an oppressed group disagrees with that?

More power to them? Not my place to tell them. Can't think of one, though.

[bladeXcrasher]

@Seranthor Made it easier for you

You = oppressed group. Using slur =

You ≠ oppressed group. Using slur =

Paul Wall says the slur all the time and no one gives a shit.

[Elba]

He does understand it. He may or may not have the background understanding and language to explain how you got to where you did, but I do.

I'll make it succinct and say that black people do not have special powers of perception that nobody else has, nor do they get to decide the nature of phenomena by virtue of being black, regardless of what those phenomena are. No, black people do not get to decide what is and isn't racist toward black people. Something either is or isn't, apart from peoples' value judgments.

Actually they do. They are the ones affected by it. Who else would?

Paul Wall says the slur all the time and no one gives a shit.

Dunno who that is. But if he isn't black I guarantee you there are people who do indeed give a shit.

[Seranthor]

You're just being willfully obtuse, mate. Been for a bit now.

No, I'm pointing out how that someone can drive a truck thru the holes in your bullshit logic.

[Elba]

No, I'm pointing out how that someone can drive a truck thru the holes in your bullshit logic.

Really?

You = oppressed group. Using slur =

You ≠ oppressed group. Using slur =

Is pretty sound. That is the social conduct, mate. Dunno on what planet you live on.

[Shalidor]

Actually they do. They are the ones affected by it. Who else would?

Whoever makes the correct observation, based on the evidence. That may indeed be black people in some situations, but they're not going to have the correct conclusions (or the correct pathways to those conclusions be they right or wrong) all the time, just as any other group, say, white people, won't be wrong about that all the time. The power to be right or wrong in this situation isn't limited to groups. If racism is real, if it is an actual, observable thing that exists, it is therefore independently observable.

No one can simply declare something is and make it so, if the is in question has a noumenal reality. If it doesn't, then it doesn't have a phenomenal reality either and is undetectable to any human who doesn't have superpowers.

So...is the quality of "racism" an observable thing, or is it an interpreted value? I'm going to take a guess at what you're answer is going to be, because like I said earlier, I know exactly how you got from point A to point B. If I'm wrong, I'll cop to it.

No, I'm pointing out how that someone can drive a truck thru the holes in your bullshit logic.

That's because it's not logic, literally. It's not a syllogism, or even the support/warrant model of argumentation. It's full-on [REDACTED DUE TO SPOILERS].

[Elba]

I'm going to take a guess at what you're answer is going to be, because like I said earlier, I know exactly how you got from point A to point B. If I'm wrong, I'll cop to it.

Tell me. /101010

[Shalidor]

Tell you what?

Edit: What is your meaning by "/101010?"

[Elba]

Tell you what?

What my answer is.

[Shalidor]

I did say I'd cop to it if I was wrong.

I'll take the charitable position (as I did with the answer I predicted you'd give) and assume you will cop to it if I'm right.

Interpreted value.

[Elba]

Edit: What is your meaning by "/101010?"

The board requires a minimum of 10 characters to post.

So, tell me. What is my answer? How did I come from A to B?

[Shalidor]

The board requires a minimum of 10 characters to post.

So, tell me. What is my answer? How did I come from A to B?

Answer in previous post, but here it is again, quoted for your convenience.

I did say I'd cop to it if I was wrong.

I'll take the charitable position (as I did with the answer I predicted you'd give) and assume you will cop to it if I'm right.

Interpreted value.

How did I come from A to B?

Sorry, no can do. Spoilers give me a rash.

[Elba]

Answer in previous post, but here it is again, quoted for your convenience.

I did say I'd cop to it if I was wrong.

I'll take the charitable position (as I did with the answer I predicted you'd give) and assume you will cop to it if I'm right.

Interpreted value.

Suit yourself then.

[Shalidor]

Suit yourself then.

You asked me to tell you how I thought you would respond to my question. I did. I even gave the mea culpa in advance in case I was wrong (I'm not) and I'd kind of like for you to tell me how I scored. I've been charitable with you twice now. You can bring yourself to be charitable with me once.

[Theinquisition]

I didnt say anything about violence, but continue your usual almost robotic partisan Shtick

Didn't know free speech was a partisan position to take.

[Elba]

You asked me to tell you how I thought you would respond to my question. I did. I even gave the mea culpa in advance in case I was wrong (I'm not) and I'd kind of like for you to tell me how I scored. I've been charitable with you twice now. You can bring yourself to be charitable with me once.

You haven't. Where?

[Shalidor]

Didn't know free speech was a partisan position to take.

Don't you know what free speech advocates are called now? "Hate speechers." I'm serious. "Go away hate speechers" was scribbled all over the asphalt over at Berkeley.

I miss the days when they used to say shit like "free speech does not mean you are free from criticism or consequences," or "the first amendment only applies to the government." One of my old normie-progressive professors, who I am to this day very good friends with, freaked the fuck out when I told him that people on our own side were actually literally saying that second argument.

- - - Updated - - -

You haven't. Where?

That bit where I said "interpreted value."

Do you not remember what the question was? "Is the quality of racism an observable phenomenon, or an interpreted value?" I then said I had a prediction as to how you would answer, because I know how you got from point A to point B.

[Elba]

That bit where I said "interpreted value."

Do you not remember what the question was?

Ohhhh. I don't know what that means.

[Shalidor]

Ohhhh. I don't know what that means.

A normative statement. A declaration of one's personal interpretation of experience. E.g., "strawberry ice cream tastes good" would be an interpreted value. It would be an opinion one has about what one has observed with one's senses, as opposed to the thing observed itself.

Now...is racism a thing in itself that can be observed with the senses, or is it a value judgment? Is it an interpretation of phenomena, as opposed to phenomena itself?

[GennGreymane]

Didn't know free speech was a partisan position to take.

You're keeping it partisan. I don't bring up violence, but your game is pretty obvious. Pretty weak routine you have.