WoW: The RPG Without Customization

[Echocho]

Man you are gonna hate a lot of modern MMOs then.

Not hate but definitely dislike, but I choose not to play the ones lacking depth. Which is probably why a lot of people are upset with Blizzard, WoW used to have a lot more depth than it does today, which in essence makes it a completely different type of RPG than it used to be.

[Eleccybubb]

You must not have read it well enough. There are a LOT of things Missing.

Not really.

Well defined world - Azeroth has been a part of the game for 13 years. 24 if you count the series in general. I'd say the game world is very defined. You know where you are going and for what reasons.

Immersion - Subjective. I feel very immersed in my character in the story for Argus.

Story telling - Way more focused than it was 13 years ago. Denying that is just bullshit.

Complexity - There is a reason a lot of modern MMORPGs never go down that road anymore. It's not a viable option for sustainability.

Replayability - WoW has had this for 13 years and still does.

Player character development - Ignorant to state the game doesn't today.

[Echocho]

Tell you what, if I can run through a checklist and it hits more than not you'll accept that it's an rpg and stop saying stupid things like this. Deal?

I never said it wasn't a RPG, just that it lacks a lot of essential elements traditionally found in RPGs.

[LaserChild9]

Anyway, i know we are way past that point and customization is never coming back strong (Netherlight Crucible, just a little taste) I just wanted to know if anyone else feels as sad as me on this topic.

Aren't you a few expansions too late to be outraged by this? I mean, don't get me wrong, I completely agree with what you are saying, but I got over it during MoP. This is a helluva delayed reaction.

[Echocho]

Not really.

Well defined world - Azeroth has been a part of the game for 13 years. 24 if you count the series in general. I'd say the game world is very defined. You know where you are going and for what reasons.

Immersion - Subjective. I feel very immersed in my character in the story for Argus.

Story telling - Way more focused than it was 13 years ago. Denying that is just bullshit.

Complexity - There is a reason a lot of modern MMORPGs never go down that road anymore. It's not a viable option for sustainability.

Replayability - WoW has had this for 13 years and still does.

Player character development - Ignorant to state the game doesn't today.

You can't just pick the parts you agree with and say it checks out while ignoring the parts that don't

[Alydael]

-Removal of Hybrid Talents
-Removal of Talent Trees
-Removal of Gems in every piece of gear and Meta gem
-Removal of Glyphs
-Removal of Reforging
-PvP Templates
-Artifact Weapon (same skills for everyone)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Anyone else feels sad about the fact that "Customization" is frowned upon by Blizzard?
Imagination, experimentation and testing are pretty much forbidden and replaced by a standard gameplay everyone must play.

The excuse of Blizzard is "there is always a cookie cutter build"
I agree that in PvE-single target damage there is always a "cookie cutter" build of "stand still and do the most DPS"
But for PvP and World Content...there are always a million different choices you can take to be optimal. (Utility, Survival, Burst, Hybrid etc)
I call bullcrap on this excuse and i say they removed customization because is just easier to balance the game from day one.

• Was it really necessary to remove all types of customization from the game just because "there is always a cookie cutter build for single target PvE"?
  
• What about coming up with crazy new stuff that, if not optimal, it could be the gameplay you enjoy the most?
  
• Isn't "Customization" essential for a good RPG experience?

Anyway, i know we are way past that point and customization is never coming back strong (Netherlight Crucible, just a little taste) I just wanted to know if anyone else feels as sad as me on this topic.

I agree with you about the "false" cookie cutter argument.

Blizzard uses it as an excuse to not have customization, because there will always be a "cookie cutter" build.

Well, guess what Blizzard?

There will always be a "cookie cutter" spec for everything in the world. This is because there will always be a "best way" to do something. So, just because the "best track" is out, does that mean that other musicians shouldn't make tracks? Should writers stop writing because the "best book" is out?

Of course not, we need builds outside of the "cookie cutter" to add flavor to the game. The key is that those other builds should be close enough in performance that, except for ppl pushing high end mythic- it will be fine to use.

Even though a game should be balanced, you can't base your whole game around making it easier to balance. In general, the more easier the game is to balance, the less variety it has, the more boring it is to play. Think about it, it would be really easy to balance a game where each class had only 1 or 2 abilities, it would just be really boring to play......

[Eleccybubb]

You can't just pick the parts you agree with and say it checks out while ignoring the parts that don't

Because you aren't doing that at all are you?

Oh wait....

Keep posting your BS about how WoW isn't an RPG/less of an RPG. It's essentially the equivalent of The Boy who Cried Wolf at this point.

By your logic the other titans such as FF14, GW2 and ESO are not RPGS.

[Deleted]

The problem with your arguement is that around 90% of what you call "customization", really wasn't. It was the "illusion" of customization. Talent trees are pointless if there is only 1 correct way to spec, and everything else is just you being a special snowflake and getting laughed at.

The current talent Tiers option, with 3 talents in each tier is actually WAY more open to viable customization than the old Talent trees ever was.

This applies to pretty much every aspect of Talents, Gems, Glyphs, and Reforging where they impacted major elements of your character. Are you {class x}{spec 2}? Then you spec this way, reforge / gem for these stats, and use these major glyphs.

That's pretty much the standard reply we get.
But how can numerous features of customization be worse than the new system of 3 talents per row? It's impossible. It can never be better for customization in general.
Like i said before, there is ALWAYS a "cookie cutter" build for "stand still and do the most damage" (single target DPS), i understand that.
But that's only true for that one part of the game "Raid - Single Target DPS"

What about World Content? PvP?
There are millions of options in Utility, Survival, Burst etc

What makes me sad is the lack of player identity and acts of "self-expression".
As a Monk i like to be different than other Monks. I like to be myself and be unique as an act of self-expression. Like a true open Role Playing Game.

Anything in the game that doesn't affect player power is viewed by many as garbage and the requirements for balancing and attempting to make everyone viable at a high raid difficulty or PVP level push classes into a place where the more balanced they are the less that can be done with them. Hence limited customization available in PVE and things like templates in PVP. Players by constantly complaining about balance asked for that to happen.

Now this i can uderstand. "We did it for the sake of game balance"
Ok, true, people always want game balance.
But is it "above all else i want game balance"?
I personally prefer acts of self expression than game balance. Why? Because the game is never balanced anyways. Not in the past and surely not in the present.

[DRenziboy]

you can't compare any mmo after wow to wow since they are using more advanced engines, whilst wow is still stuck with it's almost 20 year old engine.
This said the fact that they can still hold up with the art style they chose is beyond me. Plus this also immediately dilutes this discussion since games with a better engine can run better customization options.

[Eleccybubb]

Wildstar is a relatively new project developed by ex-members of Blizz so It's easy to develop a game in a new engine and with the experience that wow has given them. It's a really good game indeed. Pity they lost their way.

They didn't lose their way. They just tried to cater to a specific audience, along with a poor launch and poor advertising for F2P.

They made their own bed with Wildstar.

[Deleted]

There will always be a "cookie cutter" spec for everything in the world. This is because there will always be a "best way" to do something. So, just because the "best track" is out, does that mean that other musicians shouldn't make tracks? Should writers stop writing because the "best book" is out?

Of course not, we need builds outside of the "cookie cutter" to add flavor to the game. The key is that those other builds should be close enough in performance that, except for ppl pushing high end mythic- it will be fine to use.

Even though a game should be balanced, you can't base your whole game around making it easier to balance. In general, the more easier the game is to balance, the less variety it has, the more boring it is to play. Think about it, it would be really easy to balance a game where each class had only 1 or 2 abilities, it would just be really boring to play......

Loved your post.
I always like to be different and to have a unique identity. I hate the idea to be equal to everyone else of the same class.
I like to explore all the different builds possible and come up with my own stuff.
But Blizzard is all like [ATTENTION: Acts of Self-Expression are Forbidden]

[cparle87]

I agree with pretty much everything you say.

I would also add the the homogenization of professions could be added to your list. I miss fully fleshed out profession trees, with profession specific bonuses to reward your effort.

So you liked having to reroll blacksmithing or jewelcrafting or whichever one gave you the smallest above the others bonus to sate your ocd min/maxing obsession?

Also @OP what do pvp templates have to do with customization?

[Echocho]

They didn't lose their way. They just tried to cater to a specific audience, along with a poor launch and poor advertising for F2P.

They made their own bed with Wildstar.

The main problem with Wildstar isn't the game systems but that the world is bland and boring as all hell.

[Blayze]

Loved your post.
I always like to be different and to have a unique identity. I hate to idea to be equal to everyone else of the same class.
I like to explore all the different builds possible and come up with my own stuff.
But Blizzard is all like [ATTENTION: Acts of Self-Expression are forbidden]

There used to be a way to get a bunch of crit talents as a DK across all three talent trees at once. I never got around to trying it, or the Elemental/Enhancement melee into spell into melee build I wanted to try. They could've been fun.

[cparle87]

And even then, one of the most basic forms of character customization in RPGs is being able to decide how to distribute your core stat points and WoW did away with that very, very early in the Vanilla Beta.

I find the customization arguments fairly tiring, since they all tend to just hand wave away the fact that 98% of people used the same builds as a guide stated and used addons/websites to determine things like gemming and reforging. It is not really customization at that point.

Precisely. I remember my feral druid back in ICC. I had 4 points to play around with if I wanted a raid spot, and 3 of those weren't really my own choice, but whether we had a fury warrior to apply mangle in raid or not. Yes, they go here; no I can put them somewhere else I guess maybe.

[cparle87]

I agree entirely... Without many (any really) ways to customize my character the gameplay is rather bland and boring, especially in PvP and world content... All I do nowadays is log in 2 times a week to raid+ whatever I need to do to get through the current patches' story content.

I used to PvP daily, just for fun, and the fun has just been stripped away gradually... At an all time low for me in Legion with almost no customization to be seen anywhere, and class balance being a total fucking mess.




Not really... "Bring the player not the class" was in full swing during Wrath and we had almost all the customization options available, power and cosmetic glyphs, gems on almost everything, old talent trees, more enchants and enchant variety, profession perks and special skills... The only thing we didn't have at the time was reforging and transmog...

Actually the profession perks like mining stam, herbing hot, etc weren't until Cata iirc.

[Deztru]

To be fair, 90% of players google what their spec should talent/gem/glyph/reforge.

So much for customization.

[Heavens Night]

Loved your post.
I always like to be different and to have a unique identity. I hate to idea to be equal to everyone else of the same class.
I like to explore all the different builds possible and come up with my own stuff.
But Blizzard is all like [ATTENTION: Acts of Self-Expression are forbidden]

That encapsulates almost everything I loved about Vanilla.

[Deleted]

Precisely. I remember my feral druid back in ICC. I had 4 points to play around with if I wanted a raid spot, and 3 of those weren't really my own choice, but whether we had a fury warrior to apply mangle in raid or not. Yes, they go here; no I can put them somewhere else I guess maybe.

True, not many classes had the chance to be creative in WotlK. Specially classes with different specs (Healer, Tank DPS)
But imagine if they didn't stop developing on Talent Trees since Cataclysm. 11 years of ever growing talent trees and you could go hybrid.
We would have dozens of different ways to play the same class today.

It would be a party for creativity (and a nightmare to balance)

[cparle87]

You must be a total idiot to bring the dictionary in this conversation. We are talking about the QUALITIES and CHARACTERISTICS of a RPG, not about the game's official identity.

What something is isn't its definition anymore? More fake news?