Poll: Should mythic raiding going forward be tuned to be as easy as Emerald nightmare was?

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  1. #121
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    I think the mechanics Blizzard now has to design to make mythic raiding challenging are no longer fun. If one person fucks up you wipe mechanics are frustrating not fun. These used to only appear on the last couple of bosses but now every single boss seems to have one of these.

  2. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by callipygoustp View Post
    Will there EVER be enough easy content for some players?
    I agree. There is a ton of accessible content in WoW at this point, 90% and more of it is made to be played by just about anyone, regardless of skill, time investement etc.

    Leave Mythic to people who want hard MMORPG PVE content, have heroic be a challenging middleground and normal be the easy entry into the raid.

    LFR is a topic for another day, but those 3 should mostly stay the way they went with ToS. Balancing may have been wonky, but the concept of easy-ish entry bosses, some harder bosses in the middle and really challenging final bosses is great IMO. Execution was pretty bad from what I've gathered tho so there's that.

  3. #123
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    No, way too easy.

    WoD might be a terrible expansion, but I think BRF and HFC had the best difficulty tuning we've seen in WoW.

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    Quote Originally Posted by oblivium666 View Post
    To everyone that voted (and will vote) "no": show your helya, gul'dan and kj mythic kills proof or SHUT THE FUCK UP!
    the only two option are to make it either very easy or very difficulty with little reward on top of that?

  4. #124
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    Problem with mythic availability is still it being 20man

    It's just not possible to get a casual mythic guild going because of the difficulty, you would have gquits every week.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grevmak View Post
    Leave Mythic to people who want hard MMORPG PVE content, have heroic be a challenging middleground and normal be the easy entry into the raid.
    Only the end-bosses ever prove any difficulty for the hardcore players, if Mythic had a 10man version the easier bosses would be much more available.

  5. #125
    Lol, those 102 people that actually voted yes should just f**k off, no offense

  6. #126
    Quote Originally Posted by Dangg View Post
    WoD might be a terrible expansion, but I think BRF and HFC had the best difficulty tuning we've seen in WoW.
    They overtuned normal mode for the casual audience, at least in HM and BRF.

    I had some friends I had met in Rift who came to WoW at the end of MoP, attracted by flex mode. They enjoyed N and a bit of H in SoO. The raid tuning for N mode was too much for them in WoD, and they bailed out of WoW (and MMOs in general, most of them) a month or two after BRF released.

    I think the devs eventually figured out they had screwed up and detuned N mode in later raids, but of course it was too late. I think much of the early decline in WoD can be traced to this entirely unforced error on the devs' part.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
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  7. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deztru View Post
    Problem with mythic availability is still it being 20man

    It's just not possible to get a casual mythic guild going because of the difficulty, you would have gquits every week.

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    Only the end-bosses ever prove any difficulty for the hardcore players, if Mythic had a 10man version the easier bosses would be much more available.
    Welp, hardcore players will (and should) always be able to play through most content very fast unless it's tuned to crazy degrees and will wind up being frustrating, with ToS being the most recent example.

    Mythic should just be hard content is what I want to say. That's kinda the goal of it. I wouldn't mind 10 man raiding coming back at this point since so many guilds just have people I hardly interact with but need in the guild cause ye gotta fill that 20 man roster, but on the other hand once you do find 19 other people who get along with you well, play on your level or a similiar one and share your goals...It's pretty good.

    TL;DR: Won't argue with what you said, wouldn't mind 10 man mythic again either.

  8. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by TOM_RUS View Post
    EN wasn't easy. It's tuning was perfect except for last 2 bosses that should be swapped in terms of difficulty. Every raid should be like it.
    you have to be trolling.

  9. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    They overtuned normal mode for the casual audience, at least in HM and BRF.

    I had some friends I had met in Rift who came to WoW at the end of MoP, attracted by flex mode. They enjoyed N and a bit of H in SoO. The raid tuning for N mode was too much for them in WoD, and they bailed out of WoW (and MMOs in general, most of them) a month or two after BRF released.

    I think the devs eventually figured out they had screwed up and detuned N mode in later raids, but of course it was too late. I think much of the early decline in WoD can be traced to this entirely unforced error on the devs' part.
    It took them until HFC to realize that Normal shouldn't just be about lower numbers (which barely mattered since "hardcore" players compensated with superior gear), but also removing some more punishing mechanics from the fight. At that point, it finally started to work properly - introductory difficulty which does pull its' punches, but can still kill you if you're really careless. There's still the "having X players is so much easier than Y" at times, but its' miles better than it used to be.

  10. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    They overtuned normal mode for the casual audience, at least in HM and BRF.

    I had some friends I had met in Rift who came to WoW at the end of MoP, attracted by flex mode. They enjoyed N and a bit of H in SoO. The raid tuning for N mode was too much for them in WoD, and they bailed out of WoW (and MMOs in general, most of them) a month or two after BRF released.

    I think the devs eventually figured out they had screwed up and detuned N mode in later raids, but of course it was too late. I think much of the early decline in WoD can be traced to this entirely unforced error on the devs' part.
    I meant Mythic. Agree about Normal. They got Normal fine this expansion.

  11. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aybar View Post
    Well duh, I mean the hardest mode, if I say heroic raiding people will start telling me it doesnt count till you do mythic. I've been playing this game since release, so I don;t need people explaingin to me what changed.
    I don't care when you started. Dont make false statements

  12. #132
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    The bigger joke is the "git gud scrubs" people now complaining the content for them is tuned too hard. Sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. Can't do it? GG!
    It's not about difficulty, it's about shit design. I'm fine with wiping a lot if the boss is fun, but very few ToS bosses are.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aladya View Post
    The main difficulty problem stems from a multitude of legion systems which all add up. Over an entire week of gearing up in mythic, chars are barely growing in power.

    1) 2x Legendary items. It sounds very cool that you have 2high ilvl items that have additional effects, but so does everyone. The developers cannot tune the fight in their absence, so out of 15 item slots, you only really have 13 item slots to upgrade.

    2) 1x Weapon Slot formed by 3 relics. Your weapon ilvl will be around the same as the one from top guilds when they are going against the endbosses. Going from 3 ilvl 920 relics to 3 ilvl 935 relics gives you a total of 9ilvl on your weapon. In the past a single weapon drop was an ilvl 15+ increase, now 3 "weapon drops" are worth less. 13 item slots-1 =12

    3)4 item slots are usually filled with set items. I think there's 2 mythic tokens dropping(+coins). It will take forever for this slots to make a difference, not to mention your average guild will have much fewer complete sets(with both heroic+normal ilvl) than top guilds(who have 4 hc set on every used class that matters). 12 item slots-4=8.

    4)Trinkets are not the stars they used to be. Before, devs didn't really account for the best trinkets being ridiculous, but now they don't need to because raid trinkets are usually weaker than stat stick titanforges/m+ stuff/crafts . 8item slots- 2=6.

    So really, you are only upgrading about 6 items - usually a neck(which you really want socketed if possible), wrist,waist, feet, 1 ring(again, really hope for the socket and massive amount of stat) and gloves/cloaks. Less if you're a class that benefits from 2p/4p from last tier as well.

    As I said, chars are just not growing enough in power from heroic to mythic. And as an added effect, class stacking is much stronger than in the past, but if you can't take advantage of that, then you're waiting for Blizzard to nerf.
    Pretty much this. Top guilds no longer go into the content with significantly worse gear than later guilds, thanks to splits and the large amount of "locked" gear slots. This means it's tuned around the top guilds' skill level(or not, as was the case in EN), much more heavily affecting later guilds.
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  13. #133
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    No, mythic is fine. In fact, it should be HC that should be tuned slightly up so that HC progression guilds become a thing again.
    For easy content, LFR and Normal is more than enough.

    The problem with Legion mythic raiding is that it's balanced around the premises that players will have variable amount of titanforged gear (this is extremely heavy on trinkets), legendaries and artifact level. This would obviusly make tuning a nightmare, and Blizzard tend to balance mythic around top guilds, making raids harder for regular ones. Crucible will just add more frustation when Antorus hits live. This is futher aggravated by stupid soak mechanics that encourages class stacking, and the fact that you can't really outgear a boss to make it easier like in previous expansion (think about WoD legendary ring, that allowed everyone to gain a boost every week).

    If we're lucky, next expansion war/titanforging will be more regulated, artifacts will be gone and hopefully legendaries too. This should allow Blizzard to return to a better difficulty tuning for raids.

  14. #134
    I think if they want to maintain a healthy mythic raiding pool they need to tone it down slightly. EN was too easy. NH seemed to be a good place for mythic. TOS seemed overtuned. If they move back to how NH was at least the medicore mythic raid guilds can see 1/2 the raid. The TOS model the mediocre mythic guilds only saw the first 2-3 bosses. All in all; mythic is mythic for a reason. But at the same time they have had mythic in a good place in the past with more than 60 guilds killing the end boss

  15. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tradu View Post
    It's not about difficulty, it's about shit design. I'm fine with wiping a lot if the boss is fun, but very few ToS bosses are.
    You have a very fun way of spelling "none of them are"

  16. #136
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    It's no less than 1 expansion ago where mythic was generally very well balanced with the exceptionally small exception of Gorefiend being placed a bit early in HFC. The problem is moreso the absolute backwards systems in play. I can't even begin to imagine what a nightmare it is to tune mythic with AP, potential TF and legendary system.

  17. #137
    Only if they're intending to add a Mythic+ option to incrementally increase the difficulty...

  18. #138
    It feels like everyone agrees that Mythic raiding should be difficult, but at the same time the feeling is that there were two main problems with ToS.

    1. The difficulty curve doesn't make sense as you progress.
    2. The last two bosses encourage class stacking or require near perfect play while also over-gearing the encounter.
    If you put them in difficulty tiers it'd probably look like this.
    S+ Tier
    KJ(9)
    Avatar(8)
    A Tier
    Mistress(6)
    B Tier
    Sisters(4)
    Maiden(7)
    C Tier
    Host(5)
    Harj(3)
    DI(2)
    D Tier
    Goroth(1)

  19. #139
    Quote Originally Posted by oblivium666 View Post
    To everyone that voted (and will vote) "no": show your helya, gul'dan and kj mythic kills proof or SHUT THE FUCK UP!
    Beat me to it. Half the people screaming about it being too easy are the type that live vicariously through Method and Exorsus and don't touch Mythic themselves.

    Anyone who has been progressing through M ToS and says its not been frustrating is either in a world class guild or a masochist.

    Just my two cents from an average Mythic raider stuck between difficult encounter design and the roster boss

  20. #140
    Quote Originally Posted by Riistov View Post

    Anyone who has been progressing through M ToS and says its not been frustrating is either in a world class guild or a masochist.

    (
    there's a world of difference between ToS and emerald nightmare tho

    mythic xavius is easier than HC kiljaeden basically

    altough i must admit i kinda enjoy mythic kil'jaeden, because he's refreshingly unforgiving, even with the recent nerfs
    Last edited by shaunika123; 2017-09-18 at 06:32 PM.

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