WoW: The RPG Without Customization

[grexly75]

Please don't say that. World of Warcraft, for all its good points, has never deployed player housing in any way. It's never happened.

Please don't work under the auspice that it did. Assuming it's garrisons you're talking about, they're not even close to what player housing is supposed to be.

No matter how bad garrisons were perceived they are still a form a player housing, of course not on the level of what is seen in other games but it is what it is.. And they were a form of player housing just not very good..

[Polybius]

@ OP

I don't think you understand how many times we had gamebreaking combinations every time they tried adding new spells. Stats are fun to play with, not so much when they give players a can of worms like limitless reforging.

@ people vouching for dyes

They never existed in any game during WoW's inception. OP is mostly referring to builds from theorycrafting.

[cparle87]

Only read the first few responses, but its 100% for balance purposes.

If they went the opposite route, more customization and less balance, we'd have the opposite thread here, with just as many responses.

Personally, id rather have a decent chance to doing the same numbers as my raid mates, assuming similar playtimes.

I'll pick balance over customization every time.

Yeah, like remember when that high level guild got their heroic Lich King attempt nullified when they found they could use some engineering item to boost their dps beyond what it should've been able to do and even glitchily rebuilt the Lich King's platform?

[Mafic]

I would argue that WoW is not much of an RPG at all anymore.

I agree.

That is very problematic moving forward though. When MOBAs offer more RPG elements that is when you known WoW is going the wrong way.

[Phookah]

-Removal of Hybrid Talents
-Removal of Talent Trees
-Removal of Gems in every piece of gear and Meta gem
-Removal of Glyphs
-Removal of Reforging
-PvP Templates
-Artifact Weapon (same skills for everyone)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Anyone else feels sad about the fact that "Customization" is frowned upon by Blizzard?
Imagination, experimentation and testing are pretty much forbidden and replaced by a standard gameplay everyone must play.

The excuse of Blizzard is "there is always a cookie cutter build"
I agree that in PvE-single target damage there is always a "cookie cutter" build of "stand still and do the most DPS"
But for PvP and World Content...there are always a million different choices you can take to be optimal. (Utility, Survival, Burst, Hybrid etc)
I call bullcrap on this excuse and i say they removed customization because is just easier to balance the game from day one.

• Was it really necessary to remove all types of customization from the game just because "there is always a cookie cutter build for single target PvE"?
  
• What about coming up with crazy new stuff that, if not optimal, it could be the gameplay you enjoy the most?
  
• Isn't "Customization" essential for a good RPG experience?

Anyway, i know we are way past that point and customization is never coming back strong (Netherlight Crucible, just a little taste) I just wanted to know if anyone else feels as sad as me on this topic.

Plenty of cookie cutter stuff for pvp builds too. You never really had customization; you had the "right" choices and "wrong" choices. High end PvE and PvP didn't have a bunch of variation early in the game either.

"Well I played a (insert spec combination that was wacky) mage and it was the most fun ever!"

Great, you can still do that now. (To a point, of course you can't go tri spec silliness or such like before) If you have more fun from using the stuff that's "wrong", then go for it. It doesn't matter in the slightest unless you're at the high end of pve or pvp.

TL;DR Gems/Reforging/Glyphs/Old Talents weren't real choices, they were the same as now. You could gem/enchant/glyph/talent "correctly" or you just did what you wanted in the name of fun (which is great!) You can still play and gear how you like to your own detriment if you want, its up to you.

[Doomchicken]

An illusion of choice is never real choice to begin with and that's what the old talent trees offered; an illusion of choice. The new ones granted aren't much better since Blizzard aren't particularly good at balancing the three items for each row for a lot of classes/specs.

[Doomchicken]

Why was it an illusion? Because the raiding community all used the same spec? 1% of the player base using the exact same specs somehow invalidates the other 99% who don't?

Cookie cutter specs were very common and not just in the raiding community. Considering how many non choices there were how could it not be? Sure, some random person could throw points in everywhere and go good enough, but that's always going to be the case regardless of what pseudo choice they put in.

You either give a shit enough to find your best abilities/talents/tree and use THAT or you give no fucks and just do whatever you want and do horribly in the process. If you do give a shit about the game and your performance in it whether it be vanilla or now you have no real choice and any other choice is simply an illusion.

[Aleax]

Yes, customization works against balance. The more customization you get, the more it hurts balance. So it definetly is a reason Blizzard don't want major customization all around.

But anyway, there is even a customization shortage on appearance now; they killed glyphes, and I cannot even mount my new paladin class mount with my Divine Steed spell instead of my human BLUE charger mount. At this point, it should be a possibility...

[Nekosom]

Why was it an illusion? Because the raiding community all used the same spec? 1% of the player base using the exact same specs somehow invalidates the other 99% who don't?

You don't actually remember the old talent trees, do you?

Most talents boiled down to two categories, "Essential" and "Pointless." What was even worse is that most of those talent choices were just stat modifiers. Yes, there was some slight variation between individual tree choices, but typically, choosing anything other than certain talents left your class completely gimped. Why was it like this? Because Blizzard was never able to balance around true choice. And god knows they tried. They even miraculously got to a point where just about every specialization was actually functional. And that took them many years to accomplish.

Even in the simplified environment they have now, they can't maintain class balance. Why does anyone think that going back to a more convoluted system is a good idea? Would I like more choices? Of course. But unlike some here, I'm a realist, and I know that the consequence of more choices is that whatever sort of parity that's been achieved in the game will go right out the window as a result.

[Deleted]

-Removal of Hybrid Talents
-Removal of Talent Trees
-Removal of Gems in every piece of gear and Meta gem
-Removal of Glyphs
-Removal of Reforging
-PvP Templates
-Artifact Weapon (same skills for everyone)

What is Hybrid talent?

Removal of talent tree was a great idea. Every spec had 1-2 best builds (1 most likely) anyway and there was 99% of people with that one build of talents. Now, most of these talents are passive. Actually now you have better talent customization than before

Glyphs - same as talents. Must have glyphs to boost dmg, later where there were no dmg boost glyphs there were only utility. The utility you now have a baseline. or total crap things no one ever cared about.

Gems - Reforging - Just one thing to get the most of stat which is strongest to you. It's not customization to reforge everything into crit and overwhelm gear with crit gems. Now Socket proc is a bonus.

PvP templates - Good step. It's just a way to balance thing. Still not balanced tho.

Artifact weapons - well have the random sword from a boss with nothing more than few stats is better?

[WowIsDead64]

-Removal of Hybrid Talents
-Removal of Talent Trees
-Removal of Gems in every piece of gear and Meta gem
-Removal of Glyphs
-Removal of Reforging
-PvP Templates
-Artifact Weapon (same skills for everyone)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Anyone else feels sad about the fact that "Customization" is frowned upon by Blizzard?
Imagination, experimentation and testing are pretty much forbidden and replaced by a standard gameplay everyone must play.

The excuse of Blizzard is "there is always a cookie cutter build"
I agree that in PvE-single target damage there is always a "cookie cutter" build of "stand still and do the most DPS"
But for PvP and World Content...there are always a million different choices you can take to be optimal. (Utility, Survival, Burst, Hybrid etc)
I call bullcrap on this excuse and i say they removed customization because is just easier to balance the game from day one.

• Was it really necessary to remove all types of customization from the game just because "there is always a cookie cutter build for single target PvE"?
  
• What about coming up with crazy new stuff that, if not optimal, it could be the gameplay you enjoy the most?
  
• Isn't "Customization" essential for a good RPG experience?

Anyway, i know we are way past that point and customization is never coming back strong (Netherlight Crucible, just a little taste) I just wanted to know if anyone else feels as sad as me on this topic.

It's sad to say it, but Wow becomes more and more arcade MOBA/adventure/platformer, than RPG. Not only customization, that is being removed, but also simple fact, that by definition RPG - is game, that is about character progression via doing quests, and Blizzard removes this element more and more and replaces it with Tomb Rider/Assassins Creed-like navigation, jump-puzzle, treasure hunting kinds of gameplay, that don't even fit into RPG genre. Ok, I understand, that Blizzard's goal is to maximize profit and have as many players with different playstyles, as possible, so if some players like platformers - then why can't we add platformer kind of gameplay to Wow? There is only one problem - IT'S FORCED ON ALL PLAYERS. The only compromise between platformer and RPG, that has been keeping this two playstyles balanced for many years - is now REMOVED. You know, what I'm talking about - it's FLYING. It's very simple. Who like platformers - just shouldn't use flying. As simple, as that. Problem is only inside their brain - they feel envy and jealousy, when they see, that some other players play some different way, that is "easier" from their point of view. And if flying would removed - everybody would all of a sudden start to love platformers and jump puzzles. It's the same old "If Blizzard would remove LFR - everybody would love Mythic raids" kind of argument.

TL;DR MMORPG genre is dead. Now we play MOBA/MMOAdventure/MMOPlatformer kind of game. Deal with it or quit.

[Hctaz]

It changes quite a bit if an rpg has weapons that can't kill any thing and don't interact with the world in any way they might as well not exist. For example in divinity original sin there are Wands that interact with the world or only creant enemy's but over all have such poor stats there unless other wise, borderlands doesn't have this for 99% of weapons they are just dead weight in the game with no meaning or use if you get a grey gun at max level it will never be useful so it might as well not exist.

I mean, grey weapons exist because RPGs don't just give you the best gear. You have to filter through the shitty gear so the good gear looks even better. That's kinda the point.

And it doesn't change anything. If an RPG has useless weapons or talents then it's all just game balance, not design. The game is designed to give you lots of choices. Some of those choices are going to be bad on purpose, some are going to be good on purpose, and some are going to be good if you build around them. The game developers don't have all of the answers on purpose. That's how Vanilla-Cata worked. They put stuff into the game that had ambiguity around them. "Is this item good? Is it bad? Can this talent make this item set better?" WoW has removed a lot of those choices for the sake of balance. Blizzard is even trying to make gearing choices irrelevant now by attempting to make item level matter more than what kind of stats are on the gear.

[Doomchicken]

It's sad to say it, but Wow becomes more and more arcade MOBA/adventure/platformer, than RPG. Not only customization, that is being removed, but also simple fact, that by definition RPG - is game, that is about character progression via doing quests, and Blizzard removes this element more and more and replaces it with Tomb Rider/Assassins Creed-like navigation, jump-puzzle, treasure hunting kinds of gameplay, that don't even fit into RPG genre. Ok, I understand, that Blizzard's goal is to maximize profit and have as many players with different playstyles, as possible, so if some players like platformers - then why can't we add platformer kind of gameplay to Wow? There is only one problem - IT'S FORCED ON ALL PLAYERS. The only compromise between platformer and RPG, that has been keeping this two playstyles balanced for many years - is now REMOVED. You know, what I'm talking about - it's FLYING. It's very simple. Who like platformers - just shouldn't use flying. As simple, as that. Problem is only inside their brain - they feel envy and jealousy, when they see, that some other players play some different way, that is "easier" from their point of view. And if flying would removed - everybody would all of a sudden start to love platformers and jump puzzles. It's the same old "If Blizzard would remove LFR - everybody would love Mythic raids" kind of argument.

TL;DR MMORPG genre is dead. Now we play MOBA/MMOAdventure/MMOPlatformer kind of game. Deal with it or quit.

This is by far the dumbest post I've read of all time in all my life.
Most of the character/gear progression is in dungeons and raids, like it has been since the game launched. Yes, there are world quests that offer artifact power, yes there are world quests that offer substandard gear that if you get INSANELY lucky can be as good as the end game gear, but again, most of the gear comes from RAIDS and DUNGEONS, which is where your character progression is. The rest of it is absolute gibberish and ranting on a crazed madman like scale.

[Echocho]

Cookie cutter specs were very common and not just in the raiding community. Considering how many non choices there were how could it not be? Sure, some random person could throw points in everywhere and go good enough, but that's always going to be the case regardless of what pseudo choice they put in.

You either give a shit enough to find your best abilities/talents/tree and use THAT or you give no fucks and just do whatever you want and do horribly in the process. If you do give a shit about the game and your performance in it whether it be vanilla or now you have no real choice and any other choice is simply an illusion.

I remember trying at least 20 different builds on my DK during WOTLK. Experimenting was half the fun.

[WowIsDead64]

This is by far the dumbest post I've read of all time in all my life.
Most of the character/gear progression is in dungeons and raids, like it has been since the game launched. Yes, there are world quests that offer artifact power, yes there are world quests that offer substandard gear that if you get INSANELY lucky can be as good as the end game gear, but again, most of the gear comes from RAIDS and DUNGEONS, which is where your character progression is. The rest of it is absolute gibberish and ranting on a crazed madman like scale.

90% players shouldn't even play Wow, right?

[huth]

If the recent Talents have 2187 possible combinations...Wrath of the Lich King Talent Trees had what? Millions? Billions of possible combinations?

Far fewer than now due to how the trees worked. You get those 2187 options because you can freely combine the options from the various tiers. You couldn't do that in WotLK. Didn't help that most of those points ended up in passive boosts akin to the lesser artifact traits.

We're not only left with just cosmetic customization but one of the worst in the RPG industry. You cannot customize your character very much or even your gear as much as you can in many various other games as far as dye goes and what not.

"Worst"? There's still tons of games around that don't give you any at all.

Not that there is any part in "RPG" that actually means "you get to customise your character". Just "you play a character(or group) that is not yourself".

- - - Updated - - -

90% players shouldn't even play Wow, right?

If he had said "best" rather than "most", he'd be half right. He's way underestimating the AP contribution of WQs, though. So in the end, he's wrong anyway.

[Doomchicken]

90% players shouldn't even play Wow, right?

What in the giant fuck are you talking about? If 90 percent (I have no idea what dimension you pulled that number out of) shouldn't play wow then guess what? That "90 percent shouldn't even play WoW" applies to vanilla, tbc, wrath, cata, mop and wod as well. Character progression has ALWAYS been in the end game raid and dungeon content, whether it be 10 man, 20 man, 25 man, normal, heroic, mythic or even the heroic or mythic plus dungeons. All that other utter crap you posted about platforming in your first post is just that, utter crap.

[huth]

What in the giant fuck are you talking about? If 90 percent (I have no idea what dimension you pulled that number out of) shouldn't play wow then guess what? That "90 percent shouldn't even play WoW" applies to vanilla, tbc, wrath, cata, mop and wod as well. Character progression has ALWAYS been in the end game raid and dungeon content, whether it be 10 man, 20 man, 25 man, normal, heroic, mythic or even the heroic or mythic plus dungeons. All that other utter crap you posted about platforming in your first post is just that, utter crap.

And gear gained from other sources isn't character progression? And they can't add other options like they did with WQs? PvP gear doesn't exist? Sure, Dungeons and Raids have always had gear based character progression. But they haven't been the sole source of that for over a decade now.

[Deleted]

Transmog is a major customization feature and it's only ever been improved since it was introduced. Also titles are pretty good for character customization and RP.

The new talent system is way better than previous talent trees. You always followed a cookie cutter spec before, now I'm constantly switching around talents based on whatever (PvP, the encounter, the environment, gear, etc). The talents are always being looked at and amended to make them more competitive, just look at whats changed since the start of the expansion.

Plus glyphs still exist, do you even play this game?

[huth]

Plus glyphs still exist, do you even play this game?

He wants the boring glyphs back were you don't really have choice which to use, rather than just the cosmetic ones that are entirely up to your preference. Because of the "customisation", you know.