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  1. #241
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    Quote Originally Posted by mayhem008 View Post
    approach the cops with a weapon and refuse to comply. You just might get shot. Why do people not get this?
    I don't necessarily disagree, but it's somewhat complicated for me. A kid with a penknife, nobody indicates he was within range to actually harm the officers or anyone else. Surely there was something else that could have been done. Tazers? Back up and talk him down some more?

    I'm not some crazy SJW dickhead, if he was intending to attack police officers they're within their rights to protect themselves, it just seems somewhat extreme to me that a kid with a knife is met with gunfire. It's a threat for sure, and measures must be taken, but this seems somehow disproportionate.

    I'm not saying they should wait until he's hurt someone either, but it's not like police don't get training for dealing with people like this. For all we know the kid was having a mental breakdown or whatever and needed help, instead he got dead.

    Like I say, i'm not blaming the police for what they did, we can't know the full story from this article, but I can't imagine this was the only possible outcome.

  2. #242
    Quote Originally Posted by Thwart View Post
    the truth is that the vast majority of police forces in the world understand that shoot to injure is just not smart - it's a good way for the officer or a bystander to end up severely injured or dead.
    The "vast majority" or police forces in the world in absolute number of police forces (not police officers or respective civilian population) is from uncivilised countries that still have things like the death penalty.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by CyferMax View Post
    Like I say, i'm not blaming the police for what they did, we can't know the full story from this article, but I can't imagine this was the only possible outcome.
    The ones who should get the blame are those in charge of the training, the politicans who should set the rules for it, and the electorate that voted those politicans in power.

  3. #243
    Quote Originally Posted by mayhem008 View Post
    What would you say?
    I'd say Elton John called and wants his glasses back.

  4. #244
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    Quote Originally Posted by Taftvalue View Post
    Oh no the evil cop! He should have fought him barehanded, possibly getting fatally stabbed. Pigs, all of them!
    Or shot her in the leg from 20 yards

  5. #245
    Quote Originally Posted by CyferMax View Post
    Like I say, i'm not blaming the police for what they did, we can't know the full story from this article, but I can't imagine this was the only possible outcome.
    The ones who should get the blame are those in charge of the training, the politicans who should set the rules for it, and the electorate that voted those politicans in power.

  6. #246
    Over 9000! Lahis's Avatar
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    Honestly incompetence from the police that they couldn't do a non-lethal shot to stop him.

    Shoot the legs goddamnit. I know torso is bigger target but come on, you are not supposed to kill everyone.

  7. #247
    Why did this person's family give them a Dog's name?

  8. #248
    Quote Originally Posted by CyferMax View Post
    I don't necessarily disagree, but it's somewhat complicated for me. A kid with a penknife, nobody indicates he was within range to actually harm the officers or anyone else. Surely there was something else that could have been done. Tazers? Back up and talk him down some more?

    I'm not some crazy SJW dickhead, if he was intending to attack police officers they're within their rights to protect themselves, it just seems somewhat extreme to me that a kid with a knife is met with gunfire. It's a threat for sure, and measures must be taken, but this seems somehow disproportionate.

    I'm not saying they should wait until he's hurt someone either, but it's not like police don't get training for dealing with people like this. For all we know the kid was having a mental breakdown or whatever and needed help, instead he got dead.

    Like I say, i'm not blaming the police for what they did, we can't know the full story from this article, but I can't imagine this was the only possible outcome.
    100% agree. That said, wtf did the kid think was going to happen? Holding a weapon, approaching police that are probably screaming at you to drop the weapon and you don't do it. No matter what this would not have ended well for the kid. Sad that it ended in death though, because as you said....why the need for fatal retaliation when a tazer or some other non-lethal weapon would be sufficient?

  9. #249
    Quote Originally Posted by Lahis View Post
    Honestly incompetence from the police that they couldn't do a non-lethal shot to stop him.

    Shoot the legs goddamnit. I know torso is bigger target but come on, you are not supposed to kill everyone.
    I agree there should have been an attempt at non lethal, but shooting the legs, just like warning shots are pure Hollywood.
    Most people think shooting handguns is easy, it's not, most people suck with them, they are very inaccurate with them. Especially when it comes to follow up shots. 2 bigger issues are, if the person is legitimately attacking the police, a leg shot won't put them down, unless it's an incredibly lucky shot that hits the femur dead on and actually breaks it. The other issue is all those wasted missed shots are going to go somewhere, they will all most assuredly ricochet of the ground and will be free to find innocent bystanders.

  10. #250
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elba View Post
    Maybe. But isn't it better that a cop does not risk killing an unarmed citizen?
    If by your definition that the state is supposed to serve the people then what will the state do when it's citizens are threatened by people with weapons that aren't the police and the police have no way to defend them?
    "when i'm around you i'm like a level 5 metapod. all i can do is harden!"

    Quote Originally Posted by unholytestament View Post
    The people who cry for censorship aren't going to be buying the game anyway. Censoring it, is going to piss off the people who were going to buy it.
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  11. #251
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    Quote Originally Posted by McFuu View Post
    I agree there should have been an attempt at non lethal, but shooting the legs, just like warning shots are pure Hollywood.
    Most people think shooting handguns is easy, it's not, most people suck with them, they are very inaccurate with them. Especially when it comes to follow up shots. 2 bigger issues are, if the person is legitimately attacking the police, a leg shot won't put them down, unless it's an incredibly lucky shot that hits the femur dead on and actually breaks it. The other issue is all those wasted missed shots are going to go somewhere, they will all most assuredly ricochet of the ground and will be free to find innocent bystanders.
    It can be done, even in city centre.

  12. #252
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hextor View Post
    Sure, shoot to kill on a campus. A dangerous warzone!
    And yet it's right. Anybody with an actual weapon training will say that.

    Fire weapon is a lethal force. Which engagement is expected to kill the target. That's the purpose of the tool, kill what it shoot at.
    If you want a non lethal resolution, you should use a non lethal weapon. Which engagement is expected to not kill the target.

    I'm not saying that police did right in this case, and seeing the video they didn't. But all the stupid "they should shoot in the shoulder/hand/legs" is plain stupid. If you shoot a fire weapon you shoot the center mass, period. We don't live in a TV show where the good guy shoot the bad guy's hand. That's what tasers are for.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lahis View Post
    Sure it can be done. But expected as a standard fire weapon use would be stupid. Aiming that precisely with a gun is not easy. And believe it or not, most police or military personnal aren't good marksman enough to pull that.

    And I actually trained military personnal to shoot.
    Last edited by Ealyssa; 2017-09-21 at 12:01 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by primalmatter View Post
    nazi is not the abbreviation of national socialism....
    When googling 4 letters is asking too much fact-checking.

  13. #253
    People genuinely defending a knife-wielding maniac, fucking el oh el


  14. #254
    While it is obvious that she did threaten the police, then what is the point of non-letal weapons if you don't use them? I still ask - why other countries mostly manage to avoid shooting the crazy persons (as it seems in this case - she had issues) by using those tools? They saw (I assume) that she did not have gun, that already should open up the possibility that. Plus, ffs, do they have or don't have trainings about dealing with someone who might be mentally unstable? Why is the gun so often the answer?

  15. #255
    Quote Originally Posted by Easo View Post
    While it is obvious that she did threaten the police, then what is the point of non-letal weapons if you don't use them? I still ask - why other countries mostly manage to avoid shooting the crazy persons (as it seems in this case - she had issues) by using those tools? They saw (I assume) that she did not have gun, that already should open up the possibility that. Plus, ffs, do they have or don't have trainings about dealing with someone who might be mentally unstable? Why is the gun so often the answer?
    Because tazers are not always effective. Because you dont confront someone willing to use lethal force with non lethal force. A person with a knife can cover 20 feet in a couple of seconds and stab you numerous times. Just because they are mentally unstable, does not give them a pass and allow them to threaten or kill someone. This is not the movies you never shoot to wound. That gets you dead . A leg shot has a 80% chacee to be fatal by severing the femoral artery `


    There are all kinds of videos on the internet where LEO have been killed because a perp with a knife, or even unarmed, was able to get close enough to the officer and kill them because they tried to use non lethal means to deal with someone will to kill.
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  16. #256
    Quote Originally Posted by Lahis View Post
    I'm failing to see where shooting the guy in the leg was the plan.

    Depending on situation, and weapon system I would be confident enough to take that shot. But I'm also a way better shot than 99.99% of people. There is a reason the only incapacitation drill that Federal standards use is shooting the pelvis. But it's taught as part of the 2 to the chest, 1 to the head (or pelvis in this instance). There chest shots in quick succession stop an attacker, allowing for a better aimed shot to the pelvis or head.

  17. #257
    Over 9000! Lahis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by McFuu View Post
    I'm failing to see where shooting the guy in the leg was the plan.

    Depending on situation, and weapon system I would be confident enough to take that shot. But I'm also a way better shot than 99.99% of people. There is a reason the only incapacitation drill that Federal standards use is shooting the pelvis. But it's taught as part of the 2 to the chest, 1 to the head (or pelvis in this instance). There chest shots in quick succession stop an attacker, allowing for a better aimed shot to the pelvis or head.
    Non-lethal take down is always the plan. Atleast for Finnish police, Americans seem to prefer kills.

  18. #258
    There is a difference between missing a shot and hitting the leg, and a non-lethal takedown.

  19. #259
    Over 9000! Lahis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by McFuu View Post
    There is a difference between missing a shot and hitting the leg, and a non-lethal takedown.
    How about aiming and hitting the leg?

    Yes, this is intentional. Our police doesn't shoot to kill, they shoot to incapasitate.

  20. #260
    Quote Originally Posted by Prince Oberyn Martell View Post
    It's not that difficult to do a bit of research.

    Average Time spent on Police Training:

    UK- 34 weeks
    Poland- 20 weeks
    Turkey-19 weeks
    Japan- 24 weeks
    Germany- 30 months
    United States- 6 weeks

    In most West-European countries you can't even become a police officer unless you have a BA degree. Those countries usually provide the education and training to earn that BA degree in the police academy though. I'm not even sure what the requirements are to become a police officer in the USA, but they seem to be abysmally low and it seems to have a lot of negative consequences for the civilians who live in the USA.

    Someone else showed some graphs on this forum before, but another problem is that US cops spend like a great majority of their time within training on shooting and combat... while in many other modern countries the majority instead is spent on de-escalation.
    Most of the ones around me want at least associates degree plus the police academy training.
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