Legion Theorycrafting [7.3, All specs]

[Biomega]

What are your thoughts on the viability of the AotB build, with Qa'pla+Sephuz/belt when t21 gets released?

My thoughts are that a lot is going to happen before Antorus is released, and thinking about it at this point in time is fairly pointless.

[Effinhunter]

How does torment the weak trait work? Is there any point in getting more than 1 rank since the stack doesn't go above 3? I have 2 ranks so far and i feel like i messed up big.

In Simcraft, we have this modeled in the following way (Source, SpellDataDump)

Hotfixes: Rank 1: Value (19800 -> 16000), Rank 2: Value (39600 -> 32000), Rank 3: Value (59400 -> 48000)

So, it allows for up to rank 3 (one for each relic) in the current spelldata. I think you're perfectly fine. This should double the effectiveness of the dot at Rank 2 (if the spelldatadump is correct).

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What are your thoughts on the viability of the AotB build, with Qa'pla+Sephuz/belt when t21 gets released?
I've started to really enjoy the build and am now pouring some AP into my BM artifact so as to be ~3 traits behind my main, MM. From a basic look at BM's t21 set bonuses, to me it looks like the AotB+Qapla build will still be viable, but I'm looking into other people's opinions on it.
Currently this spec is a great alternative for going MM on heavy movement fights, and I really want to be using it while progressing on M Avatar.

Also, could someone explain how can Sephuz be among the best Bm legos even on fights where you can't interrupt, like Sisters or Avatar? Is the passive haste buff just that good?

As Biomega mentioned, it's difficult to speculate the final state of T21 right now. However, AotB with boots will allow more KCs (2 piece synergy) and if we keep the 4pc, we'll have more reductions on AotW, which will help offset the supposed upcoming nerfs to CoF for those still using it. For me, right now, the CoF with the bracers and boots appear to be my highest simming profile when there are no interrupts with AotB. Otherwise, it's Boots/Sephuz. As for why Sephuz and even Prydaz combinations work so well with Qapla/AotB, the rings and necks were buffed to provide more secondary stats than previously, and this was done to make them both more competitive. Sephuz was then buffed with a baseline %haste which is sort of icing on the cake and helps normalize its utility against those fights without interrupts.

So, basically, there was a buff to Sephuz that gave it more secondary stats and gave it 2% baseline haste to make it competitive with the upper middle legendaries that were available, and AotB does well with most secondary stats, so all of those increases are really good for the Qapla/AotB combos, especially haste with the existing crit/mastery baselines.

[Effinhunter]

I have had a bit of a crazy travel and work schedule, but I'm trying to pick up where I left off. Because of relinquished turnins, I am redoing the trinket sims and allowing for almost all trinkets to proc up to 955. I am also going to be posting trinket sims that include some legendaries, especially sephuz because it augments RPPM trinkets quite a bit. Some of the results are pretty surprising, and for me, has been useful in understanding what works with pydraz/qapla vs qapla/sephuz with BM, for instance. For BM and MM, I am altering gear profiles to have more crit than in previous versions. I am leaving any 2pc T19 equips at 915 and upping T20/Tomb/M+ items to 930, since they are far more accessible now at this item level.

The number of trinkets in each listing is going up by a lot (there are over 1100 profiles in each spec listing), but the extra sim work should help people have a better idea of where potential trinkets fall and what is worth simming with their own gear profiles, especially given how Relinquished is making all trinkets at all levels much more accessible to all raiders.

Edit: P.S. I have preliminary versions but I am working out some display and profile tweaks/resims and don't expect them to be posted until late Tuesday or some time Wednesday. The sims take a long time.

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Alright, so I forgot to up Concordance on the base sim to be realistic for current trait investments, so the following are really just a preview of what should be posted this weekend. I will be running trinkets with no legendaries as well to show baselines and how most of these legendaries don't matter much. What it will hopefully help people out with is understanding what trinkets are worth going after and simming with your own gear.

The major changes are that the gear is more inline with what most of us are using right now, (crit >= mastery > haste, in terms of overall stat investment). BM build is talent=2111113 (OwtP/Stomp/AotB). MM is the stock LnL build (talent=1103013). I could do TA as well, if that's of interest. The only MM legendary I'm currently simming is the boots, since it's the anchor legendary (the one we tend to always bring). I could also add one with gloves and the huntmaster ring, though the trinket weighting differences will not be as drastic as sephuz in BM. So, I'm planning on adding a Sephuz option instead. I've renamed the old stat stick to literally be "Stat Stick" with a qualifier for secondary (HASTE, MASTERY, etc.)

One of the options in the Qapla/Sephuz trinket listing is COMPLETELY theoretical and just shows what the 3rd legendary being KJ would look like. Obviously, disregard it in loot decisions. This is theorycrafting, not advice. It's there as a marker to give relative ranking for non-legendary trinkets given the gearset.

Here's a list of things to keep in mind:

1.) This is a good faith listing of trinkets in Simcraft with 10k iterations in a reasonable gear set that players might target. It is not an attempt to form a "BiS" list. It is simply a relative ranking of trinkets given a reasonable set of gear. You should sim your own gear. This is best used as a guide of what you should sim for yourself, with the gear you've acquired. Feel free to use Raidbots, Simcraft, AMR, or whatever you feel comfortable with.
2.) This specific instance of the sims was accidentally simmed with 56 traits (Concordance 5). This will be remedied soon. I will run all of these with 69 traits by the end of this weekend. Many of us are ahead of this mark, but 69 traits seems reasonable. In a few weeks, I will likely up this to 72 and 75.
3.) I'm going to remove the strength trinkets in the next round. I doubt anyone is using these, and I don't really care about completeness. Feel free to suggest any trinkets I seem to have left off that might be useful, and I'll try to add them to the Simcraft Explorer database as I get time.
4.) I haven't added crucible traits, though I did add 15 item levels to weapons (the first tier crucible addition). I could add in crucible traits, though they might skew the results unnecessarily towards the absolute BiS ones that few people have 3 of. For now, I'm ok with not including 2nd tier traits. I may add 3rd tier eventually though, since those are just replicas of existing traits and are a bit easier to target.


7.3 Trinket Sims (as noted above, these will be reposted this weekend with Concordance changes)

BM: Stomp/Owtp/AotB: Qapla | Qapla/Sephuz
MM: LnL/PS/LW: Ullrs

I do plan to post trinket listings without legendaries equipped, but these are more baseline and generally just so I can keep an eye on which legendaries are causing the most deviation in trinket strength in Simcraft. These trinket listings with no legendaries will NOT BE MEANT AS BIS LISTS EITHER.

I could potentially do a Stomp/Owtp/KC or some other BM build. I don't plan on it right now. The SV sims will likely use Call of the Wild when I get to them, and will have a Sephuz option as well to show how the RPPMs are especially affected.

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New batches are still running with the change to 69 traits for all specs and removing the strength trinkets. The only one that is finished so far is the SV one for Call/Sephuz. I'll post them as they complete.

SV: Way/Snake/Cal/SrS/SC : Call/Sephuz

In hindsight, the SV profiles should be tweaked a bit more toward haste/versatility instead of haste/mastery. I'll look into a bit better of a gearset. Recommendations are, of course, always welcome.

UPDATE:
BM: Stomp/Owtp/AotB: Qapla/Sephuz

[Vindicit]

Looking at that trinket list I see that a 955 Engine of Eradication is way down low on that list. Was this trinket simmed differently then it has been in the past? It seems quite low for any trinket at 955. Feels like I should go sim my shitty BTI if engine is that low lol

185. 1211746 stat_stick (-920---VERSA--) [wowhead]
186. 1211406 tempered_egg_of_serpentrix (-935-) [wowhead]
187. 1211129 bloodthirsty_instinct (-880-) [wowhead]
188. 1211003 tirathons_betrayal (-935-) [wowhead]
189. 1210850 gift_of_radiance (-920-) [wowhead]
190. 1210779 obelisk_of_the_void (-925-) [wowhead]
191. 1210708 convergence_of_fates (-900-) [wowhead]
192. 1210458 stat_stick (-905---HASTE--) [wowhead]
193. 1210400 moonlit_prism (-950-) [wowhead]
194. 1210319 engine_of_eradication (-955-) [wowhead]
195. 1210185 thriceaccursed_compass (-905-) [wowhead]
196. 1210124 nightblooming_frond (-935-) [wowhead]
197. 1210075 ethereal_urn (-905-) [wowhead]
198. 1209953 chrono_shard (-905-) [wowhead]

[Mavick]

Looking at that trinket list I see that a 955 Engine of Eradication is way down low on that list. Was this trinket simmed differently then it has been in the past? It seems quite low for any trinket at 955. Feels like I should go sim my shitty BTI if engine is that low lol

185. 1211746 stat_stick (-920---VERSA--) [wowhead]
186. 1211406 tempered_egg_of_serpentrix (-935-) [wowhead]
187. 1211129 bloodthirsty_instinct (-880-) [wowhead]
188. 1211003 tirathons_betrayal (-935-) [wowhead]
189. 1210850 gift_of_radiance (-920-) [wowhead]
190. 1210779 obelisk_of_the_void (-925-) [wowhead]
191. 1210708 convergence_of_fates (-900-) [wowhead]
192. 1210458 stat_stick (-905---HASTE--) [wowhead]
193. 1210400 moonlit_prism (-950-) [wowhead]
194. 1210319 engine_of_eradication (-955-) [wowhead]
195. 1210185 thriceaccursed_compass (-905-) [wowhead]
196. 1210124 nightblooming_frond (-935-) [wowhead]
197. 1210075 ethereal_urn (-905-) [wowhead]
198. 1209953 chrono_shard (-905-) [wowhead]

This shouldn't be surprising honestly. If all trinkets were equal item level then EoE would not be a highly sought after trinket. However, all trinkets are not equal item level, hence why you see most people wearing it as given the options in ToS, it is the better one for BM AotB builds. Cradle notwithstanding, as simc will give it 100% uptime and in that case it's a clear winner, however you're not likely to see that in an actual fight.

Also, Engine isn't THAT far down. It's highly unlikely that your BTI is going to beat it if it's 20 or more ilevels lower.

[Effinhunter]

Looking at that trinket list I see that a 955 Engine of Eradication is way down low on that list. Was this trinket simmed differently then it has been in the past? It seems quite low for any trinket at 955. Feels like I should go sim my shitty BTI if engine is that low lol

185. 1211746 stat_stick (-920---VERSA--) [wowhead]
186. 1211406 tempered_egg_of_serpentrix (-935-) [wowhead]
187. 1211129 bloodthirsty_instinct (-880-) [wowhead]
188. 1211003 tirathons_betrayal (-935-) [wowhead]
189. 1210850 gift_of_radiance (-920-) [wowhead]
190. 1210779 obelisk_of_the_void (-925-) [wowhead]
191. 1210708 convergence_of_fates (-900-) [wowhead]
192. 1210458 stat_stick (-905---HASTE--) [wowhead]
193. 1210400 moonlit_prism (-950-) [wowhead]
194. 1210319 engine_of_eradication (-955-) [wowhead]
195. 1210185 thriceaccursed_compass (-905-) [wowhead]
196. 1210124 nightblooming_frond (-935-) [wowhead]
197. 1210075 ethereal_urn (-905-) [wowhead]
198. 1209953 chrono_shard (-905-) [wowhead]

Where are you seeing this? On BM Qapla/Sephuz it has 955 engine at 10. On BM Qapla it has 955 engine at 16. On MM Ullrs it has it at 28. On SV Call/Sephuz, it has 955 engine at 91.

- - - Updated - - -

Two more sims have finished with the 69 traits.

BM: Stomp/Owtp/AotB: Qapla
MM: LnL/PS/LW: Ullrs/Sephuz

MM with Ullr's alone and SV with Call alone are running overnight. Should be able to post them tomorrow.

[bazzzyl]

BM: Stomp/Owtp/AotB: Qapla

Effin, is it possible (and will You be willing) to test Apex with Cornered ability up for lets say 15s, 30s, 45s and 1m?
For me Apex+Boots sims only 6k dps less than my bis Sephuz+Boots and I'm wondering if and how much would I pull more dps if I'd use Apex with Cornered.

Edit. Aslo, do You know if Raidbot sims for Sephuz include "perfect" interrupts or those sims do not include that?

[3clipse]

How are you going to reliably activate Cornered in a raid setting?

[Effinhunter]

Trinket sims at end of first post should be updated.
@Baz

How would you reliably do that? My healers put AoE heals in melee and doing naked then geared for me would just waste my time.

I don't think I would have time for focusing on that sim any time in the immediate future. I need to catch up on tier breakdowns, legendaries, etc. in coarse-grained analyses first.

[bazzzyl]

Trinket sims at end of first post should be updated.
@Baz

How would you reliably do that? My healers put AoE heals in melee and doing naked then geared for me would just waste my time.

I don't think I would have time for focusing on that sim any time in the immediate future. I need to catch up on tier breakdowns, legendaries, etc. in coarse-grained analyses first.

I use 2 macros - 1 for getting naked, 1 to put all gear. This is not a problem.
During raid there is a lot of aoe, but there are some fights with no healing at the begining.
During m+ boss fights Ive managed to keep pet below 35% for whole fight many times (~1m-1,5m).

[Mavick]

I use 2 macros - 1 for getting naked, 1 to put all gear. This is not a problem.
During raid there is a lot of aoe, but there are some fights with no healing at the begining.
During m+ boss fights Ive managed to keep pet below 35% for whole fight many times (~1m-1,5m).

The correct answer is that you're not. M+ setting and raiding are not the same. Sure you might pull it off but the contortions you're going to go through to do it for whatever dps increase it may end up being makes it sound extremely not worth, hence why you don't see it often, if at all.

As for the sephuz question, this has been asked and answered many times. In a regular Patchwerk sim there are no interrupts, so the value you see from Sephuz is with no procs. However, there is now a "Casting Patchwerk" available on Raidbots (so I assume running simcraft from desktop as well), which should show you what Sephuz would be like with 100% proc rate.

[Deleted]

Do we have a list of what pieces of old/new tier we want? If so what ilvl is required for it to be an upgrade?

[Effinhunter]

Do we have a list of what pieces of old/new tier we want? If so what ilvl is required for it to be an upgrade?

It's on my to do list. I'm having to prep my raid for KJ this week, and I've just gotten sidetracked.

[Deleted]

It's on my to do list. I'm having to prep my raid for KJ this week, and I've just gotten sidetracked.

Alright cool! All your work is very appreciated so I look forward to seeing that!

[onliner]

I don't know if DF will pull ahead without the Ring, but if you look at the Sims in this thread, it doesn't really look like it.

[bazzzyl]

Every character is different and to get the most accurate results You need to learn how to sim it yourself.
Raidbots is the best way to go.

[Effinhunter]

Here's the first draft I have of the tier breakdown. Some caveats, as usual.

The tier bonuses can change at any time. Everyone is basically expecting nerfs to T19 bonuses, at the very least. Also, I did not tweak the sets to find a bis here. This is really just a representative tier set with best effort gear matching for crit, mastery and haste. I upped the item level on the T21 pieces to try to find where they finally overcome T20 pieces. I did not upgrade trinkets, rings, etc. All profiles should be 69 traits with JoT x 3 for BM and UA x 3 for MM. This is not meant to compare BM vs MM, only tier stratification without any legendaries. Legendaries may change these breakdowns in significant ways. Sim your own gear. This is only meant to give you an idea of what kinds of ilvls you will generally have to target to replace your T19 and T20 (if ever).
############################

2. Tier Breakdown

Includes two possible specs for single target. I include TA/LnL options for MM (both with PS/LW) and KC/AotB options for BM (both with OWTP/Stomp).

----- BM -----

BM tier progression, 69 traits, 930/975 ilvl, (Simcraft Source)


For BM, T19 2pc remains powerful and 4pc T20 is so powerful that if you have wf/tf T20 to around 940 ilvl, then you don't appear to need to take T21, in its current incarnation, until you have a full 4pc 960 ilvl T21. That's the current ilvl pivot for T20->T21.

----- MM -----

MM tier progression, 69 traits, 930/975 ilvl, (Simcraft Source)


T21 for MM sucks for single target. We all know the 4pc is useless there. It appears that you should keep T20 4pc at 930 and take T21 2pc for 930->985 unless you manage to get at least 4 pieces of T21 between 980 and 985 ilvl. That'll be difficult to do.

The better wf/tf your T20 right now for MM, the better off you appear to be in next tier (at the moment, of course).


Let me know if you guys see any issues in the source. First draft of the tier breakdown.

[nidosarg]

Effin did you do this sims using the nerf to t20 for mm?

Item - Hunter T20 Marksmanship 4P Bonus Casting two Aimed Shots in a row increases your critical strike damage by 15% for 6 sec. 10% for 6 sec.

Also damn as BM hunter still gonna have to find groups to farm nighthold for that fucking titanforge chance

[Effinhunter]

Effin did you do this sims using the nerf to t20 for mm?



Also damn as BM hunter still gonna have to find groups to farm nighthold for that fucking titanforge chance

It's latest nightly build (simc-730-03-win64-3ef9ce682.7z). It may not have the nerf to T20. I'll rerun after it is updated.

Also, as you noted in the pm (thanks!), there were a few enchants missing, so I've updated the source files, and when we get a new nightly, I'll rerun these (should have SV done by then too).

[Effinhunter]

Tier breakdown (Simcraft: 730-03, 55997df9f)

caveats: The tier bonuses can change at any time. Everyone is basically expecting nerfs to T19 bonuses, at the very least. Also, I did not tweak the sets to find a bis here. This is really just a representative tier set with best effort gear matching for crit, mastery and haste. I upped the item level on the T21 pieces to try to find where they finally overcome T20 pieces. I did not upgrade trinkets, rings, etc. All profiles should be 69 traits with JoT x 3 for BM and UA x 3 for MM. This is not meant to compare BM vs MM, only tier stratification without any legendaries. Legendaries may change these breakdowns in significant ways. Sim your own gear. This is only meant to give you an idea of what kinds of ilvls you will generally have to target to replace your T19 and T20 (if ever).

----- BM -----

BM tier progression, 69 traits, 930/975 ilvl, (Simcraft Source)


----- MM -----

MM tier progression, 69 traits, 930/975 ilvl, (Simcraft Source)


-----------------------

I am also running SV tier, but I'm still tweaking the profile so I'm not posting the results just yet. I am also running updated artifact breakdowns with 69 traits and updated weapon ilvls (975+ rather than 960+). The artifacts are running right now. Will have them posted this afternoon.

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BM artifact ilvl and trait upgrades, Crit/Mast, Single Target, 69 trait base, 2pc/4pc T19/T20, 930/975 ilvl, (Simcraft Source)