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  1. #721
    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    Yes, you do. And there is an entire EU proving you wrong. You are essentially saying that most of the European countries are illegitimate... things. Okay then, that's crazy talk, lady.
    You have borders though.

  2. #722
    Quote Originally Posted by Freighter View Post
    You have borders though.
    No, we don't. We have border markings, so people don't get confused. But we don't actually watch the borders aside from airports that have an outside-EU connection.
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  3. #723
    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    No, we don't. We have border markings, so people don't get confused. But we don't actually watch the borders aside from airports that have an outside-EU connection.
    Yeah, you do have borders.

    https://www.google.com.sg/maps/@51.3....8696445,4.25z

  4. #724
    Quote Originally Posted by caervek View Post
    You can't actually report people for disagreeing with you, but out of interest what part of the facts I listed do you consider "bullshit"?
    Bullshitting and non-constructive posting are grounds for infractions, though.

  5. #725
    Quote Originally Posted by Freighter View Post
    So... we do have borders? Glad you finally acknowledge how a political map works. Can you cut the shit out about European nations being illegitimate because we let refugees be distributed according to the European principle of solidarity? Many thanks.
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  6. #726
    Quote Originally Posted by Medium9 View Post
    Let me provide an example of these borders: https://www.swr.de/-/id=19487954/pro...e%20Grenze.jpg
    So? They're still borders.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    So... we do have borders? Glad you finally acknowledge how a political map works. Can you cut the shit out about European nations being illegitimate because we let refugees be distributed according to the European principle of solidarity? Many thanks.
    I have never once said that they're illegitimate.

  7. #727
    Quote Originally Posted by Medium9 View Post
    The idea that legitimation can only be achieved by military force seems a tad archaic to me. Sure, it plays a role, but a country that has weak border protection and is invaded doesn't just lose its legitimacy just like that. You may create an occupied state ruled through oppression. But try getting recognized as a proper new country like this by the rest of the world. (And yes, legitimation is a direct result of everyone else saying "okay, I see that you're a distinct entity and will treat you as such". NOT by some dudes with big guns saying "WE URE KONTRY!!!")
    Thank you. That's exactly what international custom and law dictates. This is the reason why Palestine is fighting so hard for recognition. If enough countries go "Yeah, they're legit" then Israel is having a hard time getting the UN on board on anything and lose legitimacy in their occupation.
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  8. #728
    Quote Originally Posted by Freighter View Post
    I have never once said that they're illegitimate.
    You keep insinuating that European countries have no legitimacy every time someone talks about the refugee crisis.
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  9. #729
    Quote Originally Posted by Medium9 View Post
    Not by your own definition as they are "unprotected". Is it Hypocritic Monday again in Singapore?
    They're not unprotected. They're just not actively being militarily protected in times of peace.
    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    You keep insinuating that European countries have no legitimacy every time someone talks about the refugee crisis.
    No, I am not. Try reading what I post.

  10. #730
    Quote Originally Posted by Freighter View Post
    No, I am not. Try reading what I post.
    That is what you said:

    So you're just gonna throw your hands up in the air and say fine if someone doesn't go home when told they can't stay instead of employing measures to make them? Why don't your countries just abolish your policies on immigration then? How can you rule a country if you're a defeatist who refuses to enforce border controls? No borders, no legitimacy of the government.
    Tell me again how that's not implying that European countries having distributed refugees from Greece are illegitimate? Considering that those refugees just washed up on the shore of Greece in numbers that Greece could not deal with?

    You know what, check that... I'll just wait for the next time you can't refuse to make such outrageous statements.
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  11. #731
    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    That is what you said:
    You can't just pull a quote out of context.

    Quote Originally Posted by Freighter View Post
    So? You don't have to take them. Just refuse them entry or deport them if they make into the country.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post

    That worked wonders when we said no to Eastern European migrants..
    Quote Originally Posted by Freighter View Post
    So you're just gonna throw your hands up in the air and say fine if someone doesn't go home when told they can't stay instead of employing measures to make them? Why don't your countries just abolish your policies on immigration then? How can you rule a country if you're a defeatist who refuses to enforce border controls? No borders, no legitimacy of the government.

    Kangodo was arguing that you can't deny people entry or deport people. That is either an inability to or unwillingness to and if that's the case, then the government is illegitimate.

  12. #732
    Quote Originally Posted by Freighter View Post
    You can't just pull a quote out of context.

    Kangodo was arguing that you can't deny people entry or deport people. That is either an inability to or unwillingness to and if you do that, then the government is illegitimate.
    He was speaking about a practical problem. Is this you being literal again? I swear, sometimes it's like talking to Sheldon with you...
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  13. #733
    Shit haha I'm not sure why i find this so funny, but my faith in the EU is kinda lost.

    They used 320 million dollars on the headquarters, instead of doing their jobs.

  14. #734
    Quote Originally Posted by Freighter View Post
    What value did international law have when Russia took a part of Ukraine? What value does international law have in regards to the palestine-israel situation? None. Israel is taking the lands and there's nothing to stop them.
    And that is your ideal situation, right?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Freighter View Post
    I have never once said that they're illegitimate.
    You did, several times.
    There is no other conclusion possible from your claims.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Freighter View Post
    You can't just pull a quote out of context.
    If that was true then most of your posts would be impossible.
    (There might be some where you didn't quote anyone.)

  15. #735
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ericfred View Post
    Shit haha I'm not sure why i find this so funny, but my faith in the EU is kinda lost.

    They used 320 million dollars on the headquarters, instead of doing their jobs.
    What does this have to do with anything? I'm sure (whatever country you're from) has spent millions of dollars on things that weren't entirely necessary either and this doesn't invalidate its' other actions.

    And what this with "instead of doing their job"? Even ignoring the fact that multitasking is a thing - shocking, I know - their job is making sure Poland fulfills the deal it agreed to in the past. One does not get to ignore international agreements simply because it was made by previous government and the current one doesn't share their opinion. The deal is done and there are consequences for breaking it.

    I'm not exactly thrilled at prospect of having immigrants here, but I recognize that we benefit an enormous amount from EU funding and thus we have certain responsibilities. Especially since ~7000 people is next to nothing and with our country being very homogenous, they'd be pretty much lost in the crowd.

    And yet the idea that we're somehow opressed by the EU keeps appearing in this thread. Tons of things were built using EU money, so if that's what "opression" feels like - do go on.

  16. #736
    Quote Originally Posted by KaPe View Post
    What does this have to do with anything? I'm sure (whatever country you're from) has spent millions of dollars on things that weren't entirely necessary either and this doesn't invalidate its' other actions.

    And what this with "instead of doing their job"? Even ignoring the fact that multitasking is a thing - shocking, I know - their job is making sure Poland fulfills the deal it agreed to in the past. One does not get to ignore international agreements simply because it was made by previous government and the current one doesn't share their opinion. The deal is done and there are consequences for breaking it.

    I'm not exactly thrilled at prospect of having immigrants here, but I recognize that we benefit an enormous amount from EU funding and thus we have certain responsibilities. Especially since ~7000 people is next to nothing and with our country being very homogenous, they'd be pretty much lost in the crowd.

    And yet the idea that we're somehow opressed by the EU keeps appearing in this thread. Tons of things were built using EU money, so if that's what "opression" feels like - do go on.
    The thing is that for the current government this is kinda a checkamate situation, they try to weasel out of the deal by all the means neccesary just so they don't lose their face with their iron electorate. Accepting refugees now would make them lose all creditibility to the people and no different to the previous government.

    For all I care they could just shut up and take the refugees, its not like many of them would stay in Poland. Perhaps some would do (they could open some ME restaurants/bars since kebabs are super popular) but at least this whole mess with EU would be somewhat over (the judicary reforms and others are still a problem but that is a different matter).
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  17. #737
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    Quote Originally Posted by KaPe View Post

    I'm not exactly thrilled at prospect of having immigrants here, but I recognize that we benefit an enormous amount from EU funding and thus we have certain responsibilities. Especially since ~7000 people is next to nothing and with our country being very homogenous, they'd be pretty much lost in the crowd.
    Actually, i think this shouldn't matter, and its a bad argument. Conditions should be the same for all countries in the EU, regardless of their net contribution. Poland getting more money shouldn't be an argument for them to be held to their contract, the same as germany spending more than most shouldn't be an argument for them to ignore treaties. The more we separate between net-contributors and net-receivers, the more we get a separated EU..

    I think we can argue that every EU nation should be held to their treaties. Saying stuff like they receive so much money anyway is just poisoning the well, as it will be perceived as condescending.

  18. #738
    Quote Originally Posted by Pucek View Post
    For all I care they could just shut up and take the refugees, its not like many of them would stay in Poland. Perhaps some would do (they could open some ME restaurants/bars since kebabs are super popular) but at least this whole mess with EU would be somewhat over (the judicary reforms and others are still a problem but that is a different matter).
    Exactly. It just further shows that PiS is using this ordeal to posture. Once they're in Poland, there's not much stopping them from going elsewhere within the EU, accepting them is purely symbolic.

  19. #739
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flarelaine View Post
    Bullshitting and non-constructive posting are grounds for infractions, though.
    Well yes but my post was neither hence asking him which of the facts he took exceptions too.

  20. #740
    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    Actually, i think this shouldn't matter, and its a bad argument. Conditions should be the same for all countries in the EU, regardless of their net contribution. Poland getting more money shouldn't be an argument for them to be held to their contract, the same as germany spending more than most shouldn't be an argument for them to ignore treaties. The more we separate between net-contributors and net-receivers, the more we get a separated EU..

    I think we can argue that every EU nation should be held to their treaties. Saying stuff like they receive so much money anyway is just poisoning the well, as it will be perceived as condescending.
    It's a great ideal, but you're kidding yourself if you do not believe that Germany is pulling most (not all) of the strings in EU. Also as you mentioned calling out countries on how much they get from EU is condescending and yet *some* people even in here do it all the time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowmelded View Post
    Exactly. It just further shows that PiS is using this ordeal to posture. Once they're in Poland, there's not much stopping them from going elsewhere within the EU, accepting them is purely symbolic.
    The problem is that this symbolic gesture might cause their downfall. It's not like a lot of people like the bs they pull off, but since most people don't want refugees in the country this is a highlight of current government, there are also hardly any other options (talking about other parties, the opposition right now is laughable at best), but last time they were in power people got tired of their shit in 2 years.
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