Should mythic raiding going forward be tuned to be as easy as Emerald nightmare was?

[Khallid]

It seems like after 3 months only 40ish guilds have killed Kil'Jaeden on mythic which is absurdly low.

For the health of the game and the health of raiding and most of our sanities, would you like mythic raiding to be tuned easier and closer to Emerald Nightmare difficulty?

Honestly, the world first race while still exciting for a few fans and the ones involved, should not be considered when creating the difficulty of raids. Attendance is dropping because mythic TOV, NH and now ToS were tuned very tight.

EN created a false hope in borderline mythic players, but I don't think that's a bad thing. Considering WoW is over 12 years old, creating mythic to be tuned to Emerald Nightmare's level will only be good for the game and the raiding community.

People complained that EN was too easy, so that's probably lowering it too much. Right now people complain ToS is too hard. There is no universal sweet-spot for difficulty though. It's impossible to have everyone completely happy about it.

[mob1lejunkie]

To everyone that voted (and will vote) "no": show your helya, gul'dan and kj mythic kills proof or SHUT THE FUCK UP!

I only ever do Heroic due to time, skill and age constraints but Emerald Nightmare was a sad joke. For an average shit/casual guild like ours Heroic ToS is perfect tuning.

[RuneDK]

It seems like after 3 months only 40ish guilds have killed Kil'Jaeden on mythic which is absurdly low.

For the health of the game and the health of raiding and most of our sanities, would you like mythic raiding to be tuned easier and closer to Emerald Nightmare difficulty?

Honestly, the world first race while still exciting for a few fans and the ones involved, should not be considered when creating the difficulty of raids. Attendance is dropping because mythic TOV, NH and now ToS were tuned very tight.

EN created a false hope in borderline mythic players, but I don't think that's a bad thing. Considering WoW is over 12 years old, creating mythic to be tuned to Emerald Nightmare's level will only be good for the game and the raiding community.

No it shouldn't be EN' level...I actually felt NH was a perfect balance. As well as the nerfs that came over time/our power buildup were perfectly paced. ToS is just a trainwreck on Mythic...they claim bring the player not the class yet rogues are basically required for every fight. There's too many soak mechanics and raid wipe mechanics in ToS. Which is why it's utter shit imho

[munkeyinorbit]

No, shitty players already have heroic, normal, and LFR.

Looks like shitty players also have mythic.

[Deleted]

No it shouldn't be EN' level...I actually felt NH was a perfect balance. As well as the nerfs that came over time/our power buildup were perfectly paced. ToS is just a trainwreck on Mythic...they claim bring the player not the class yet rogues are basically required for every fight. There's too many soak mechanics and raid wipe mechanics in ToS. Which is why it's utter shit imho

Last 2 bosses in tos were retarded the rest was totally fine - actually 5 out of 9 bosses are a complete joke.
You didnt need rogues for "every" fight but only for said two.

Also how was nighthold perfect balance? it was literally 7 trashcan bosses jumping to a completely overtuned augur - that jump was WAY bigger than sisters/host to mistress yet nobody complained.... well take a wild fucking guess.
Because the usual forum user that crys 24/7 didnt even see prenerf augur.

[RoKPaNda]

Honestly I wish they'd just give us template characters like PvP. Then all of us Mythic raiders would be on even footing without fucking up the fun systems in place for the other 97% of the playerbase. But yes leave it very difficult. Us mythic raiders aren't going anywhere if it proves to be too difficult, nothing even comes close to WoW in terms of PvE.

[Deleted]

ToS is just a trainwreck on Mythic...they claim bring the player not the class yet rogues are basically required for every fight. There's too many soak mechanics and raid wipe mechanics in ToS. Which is why it's utter shit imho

First: it only concerns two bosses.
Second: This was maybe true for the top 50-100 guilds, but this is not the case anymore. My guild killed Avatar M world 150 and we "only" needed 3 rogues. We could have been going with 5 but it was really really not necessary. And we could have killed the boss with only 2.
Right now on KJ we have only 2 rogues in (while we could be going for as much as 5) and we are doing absolutely fine.
And again we are a top 200 guild. So yeah the rogue stacking is not required anymore. But i guess people need to find excuses for not killing the bosses rather than admit that they could play better.

[Deleted]

I don't care when you started. Dont make false statements

I made a statement everyone with half a brain would understand. I'm sorry if it offends you ... oh wait, no I'm not!

[Deleted]

I made a statement everyone with half a brain would understand. I'm sorry if it offends you ... oh wait, no I'm not!

Doesn't offend me just proves that people nowadays are to lazy to state actual facts and supply wrong information.

[Deleted]

What would be the point to have 3 difficulties if the hardest one was not to be very hard?
This was understandable back in BC when it was only 1 difficulty and that was hard, but now it has become irrelevant.
Why do you even complain that there is this one difficulty that requires more skill and dedication??

[Aphrel]

The only boss wich were badly tuned in EN was xavius imo.

An EN-raid with guldan-like biss instead of xavius at the end whouldve been fine.

[RuneDK]

First: it only concerns two bosses.
Second: This was maybe true for the top 50-100 guilds, but this is not the case anymore. My guild killed Avatar M world 150 and we "only" needed 3 rogues. We could have been going with 5 but it was really really not necessary. And we could have killed the boss with only 2.
Right now on KJ we have only 2 rogues in (while we could be going for as much as 5) and we are doing absolutely fine.
And again we are a top 200 guild. So yeah the rogue stacking is not required anymore. But i guess people need to find excuses for not killing the bosses rather than admit that they could play better.

you only needed 2/3 rogues for fights....do you not see the problem with that? No fight should need any specific class. Blizzard totes the bring the player not the class, yet still designs encounters where a specific class is needed. I don't raid seriously anymore because I have better things to do with my free time than raid/play wow. However still needing any number of x class is bad design no matter how you try and spin it.

[Fleckens]

you only needed 2/3 rogues for fights....do you not see the problem with that? No fight should need any specific class. Blizzard totes the bring the player not the class, yet still designs encounters where a specific class is needed. I don't raid seriously anymore because I have better things to do with my free time than raid/play wow. However still needing any number of x class is bad design no matter how you try and spin it.

You don't really need the rogues anymore, we killed KJ with 2 last night and only because our demon hunter dc'd and had to be benched, otherwise we would have killed him with just 1, with our other melee being ret, enh, dh, rogue and dk.

You do need a certain amount of immunities though and we had a lot of mages and hunters to make up for that, but I would really not say rogues are required as they were before.

[Raqubor]

To everyone that voted (and will vote) "no": show your helya, gul'dan and kj mythic kills proof or SHUT THE FUCK UP!

That's the point. The game NEEDS something only the best of the best can clear. People need a carrot on a stick, that's how MMOs should be. I'd say we need more carrots and skill gated content.

[Deleted]

To everyone that voted (and will vote) "no": show your helya, gul'dan and kj mythic kills proof or SHUT THE FUCK UP!

Don't you think it's possible that people know they're not the top of the top and just want the difficulty to stay hard? I for example have killed 5/9 mythic already within 2 weeks of mythic raiding, I'm not the best by any means.
Do I think it needs to be easier just because I don't have mythic KJ yet? No I don't.
Do I need to show mythic Gul'dan etc. to you because else my argument is invalid? No I don't.

The tuning is fine as it is. Atleast for the first few bosses which I've seen right now, and the bump in difficulty each time feels really nice too. Mistress Sass'zine is so much more fun on mythic than on heroic. Even if I didn't kill it yet, I can still appreciate content. Weird isn't it?

- - - Updated - - -

Beat me to it. Half the people screaming about it being too easy are the type that live vicariously through Method and Exorsus and don't touch Mythic themselves.

Anyone who has been progressing through M ToS and says its not been frustrating is either in a world class guild or a masochist.

Just my two cents from an average Mythic raider stuck between difficult encounter design and the roster boss

So that means you're not the best of the best. Do you really need to down everything when you are not one of the best guilds? What makes you think you're entitled to that? Blizzard already made LFR, normal and heroic for people (like you and me) who aren't good enough for mythic KJ so we can still experience the content.

Summary of your post: I'm not good enough but I still want the same rewards as people who are better than me. QQ

- - - Updated - - -

That's the point. The game NEEDS something only the best of the best can clear. People need a carrot on a stick, that's how MMOs should be. I'd say we need more carrots and skill gated content.

Ye if there's anything to say about this is that there's not enough of it. The only carrot is basically mythic KJ for raiders, which is one of the largest chunks of the playerbase. If I'd have killed mythic KJ, I think I'd unsub until the next raid would be on live.

[Taeldorian]

To everyone that voted (and will vote) "no": show your helya, gul'dan and kj mythic kills proof or SHUT THE FUCK UP!

The hell? How does this correlate to ENs tuning? Helya was an amazing boss and fairly hard. Guldan was pretty rough as well but not insanely overtuned. KJ was completely overtuned before these recent nerfs and is the example of a boss that's just tuned too tight.

KJ was obviously tuned way too rough but EN was blasted through in one day. People expressed severe disappointment with how EN was tuned. Everyone and there mom complained, mythic raiders, heroic raiders and world first raiders alike.

So no. Future raids in general shouldn't be tuned how EN was. Theres definitely a spot in the middle between the ridiculously easy mythic EN and the insanely hard mythic ToS (avatar/mistress/KJ).

[unbound]

It seems like after 3 months only 40ish guilds have killed Kil'Jaeden on mythic which is absurdly low.

For the health of the game and the health of raiding and most of our sanities, would you like mythic raiding to be tuned easier and closer to Emerald Nightmare difficulty?

Honestly, the world first race while still exciting for a few fans and the ones involved, should not be considered when creating the difficulty of raids. Attendance is dropping because mythic TOV, NH and now ToS were tuned very tight.

EN created a false hope in borderline mythic players, but I don't think that's a bad thing. Considering WoW is over 12 years old, creating mythic to be tuned to Emerald Nightmare's level will only be good for the game and the raiding community.

For the health of the game, you do not want it tuned down much lower.

Here is the problem. The vast majority of people don't know what they really want. They want to have it all, and put forth only a little effort to get it. But, as the saying goes, be careful of what you wish for since the ease of getting it all results in people getting bored quickly. It is already absurd that you can see all of the content with no effort in LFR or even normal, so the challenge is really only in getting the same gear you have with better numbers and an achievement...let's not make that little bit of challenge overly trivial either.

The real problem with the game is that all of the content can be reached by trivial means. While you may find some very short-term pleasure in running that same content on a higher difficulty slider bar, it ends up being a hollow victory as your skill didn't improve to get to that in general...just your gear score.

I'm blown away by how many people have 920+ ilvl putting out the damage on the order of under 900 ilvl. For those people, this is just a game you beat by gear, not by learning new tricks or new ways to increase your play...both things that will satisfy you longer term.

[Attackrabbit]

To everyone that voted (and will vote) "no": show your helya, gul'dan and kj mythic kills proof or SHUT THE FUCK UP!

So people aren't allowed to look forward to challenges and so on? Finally downing something you've been working on with your guild for a long amount of time is such a good feeling (and what kept me playing long after I should have been), so much more than 'ok now we've reached this new end boss, oh it's dead lets nuke it every week for loot we don't really need'.
If you can't down it with your guild then just accept that it's not content for you or put in the time and effort to get there.

[Sarevokcz]

why is the question "EN or difficult" ? EN was only undertuned because they failed to expect the level of nolife guilds will put into running mythic+ and the ammount of titanforges they get.

honestly Id like raids to be tuned more like NH, without the gear from first bosses being worse than from latter ones and with healthy mix of mechanics, which NH had, and so did EN tbh

[Sanguinerd]

No, shitty players already have heroic, normal, and LFR.

This is exactly why it should be easier or removed entirely.