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  1. #741
    The Lightbringer Pannonian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pucek View Post
    It's a great ideal, but you're kidding yourself if you do not believe that Germany is pulling most (not all) of the strings in EU. Also as you mentioned calling out countries on how much they get from EU is condescending and yet *some* people even in here do it all the time.
    If you want to make something better you have to aspire to great ideals I'm aware that we aren't there, and that there are different rules for different countries. Like all the countries (mine) included ignored the 3% maximum deficit for decades, no one cared, because all were on board, but after 2008 some countries acted with full force against anyone above it, while they themselves profited long enough from the over boarding debt-policies.

    But as i said, you can only aspire to a better ideal. One step is to not be a condescending dick towards other EU nations. Not saying that Poland should get away with it, but we should call out the shitty polish government, and not Poland as a whole, because afaik a lot of people aren't happy with PiS and by insulting Poland you just strengthen the government.

    Last but not least, this is not only a job of politicians. This is on every one of us. Not diminishing Poland because of their economy, not demonizing Germany because of their past. Not calling all french cowardly frog eaters, etc. This has to be done by the people of the EU, not only the politicians, because they in essence only say what they perceive their voters want to hear. If their voters wont keep up with polish economy bashing, no politician would do it.

  2. #742
    The Unstoppable Force Mayhem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by caervek View Post
    Well yes but my post was neither hence asking him which of the facts he took exceptions too.
    Do you have an answer to my question or did you gave up on your bullshit claim?
    Quote Originally Posted by ash
    So, look um, I'm not a grief counselor, but if it's any consolation, I have had to kill and bury loved ones before. A bunch of times actually.
    Quote Originally Posted by PC2 View Post
    I never said I was knowledge-able and I wouldn't even care if I was the least knowledge-able person and the biggest dumb-ass out of all 7.8 billion people on the planet.

  3. #743
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowmelded View Post
    Exactly. It just further shows that PiS is using this ordeal to posture. Once they're in Poland, there's not much stopping them from going elsewhere within the EU, accepting them is purely symbolic.
    That is not true, if they become accepted then they gain asylum not citizen status.
    They aren't free to move around, at least they wouldn't be if every country did their job and didn't sabotage each other (one half of them by claiming whoever first ascertains their identity has to keep them and the others by failing to note down their identity in response to that).

  4. #744
    Void Lord Felya's Avatar
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    Shouldn't at least some of that trillion go to Russia? They contributed in building Poland up... in to a buffer from Germany.
    Folly and fakery have always been with us... but it has never before been as dangerous as it is now, never in history have we been able to afford it less. - Isaac Asimov
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  5. #745
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Wow, you are obsessed. Do you live in Poland?

    Poland would be Putin's within a few years if they didn't have our support.
    Not because he would take it, but because they would beg him to take over.
    Drop the superiority act.

  6. #746
    I don't support Poland's immigration stance by any means, but I do laugh at their chutzpah at throwing it back in Germany's face.

  7. #747
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Drop the one trillion claim. It's retarded.
    I don't have a one trillion claim on anything. What are you talking about?

  8. #748
    Legendary! Wikiy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mayhem View Post
    The bizarre thing is that you don't understand the difference between billion and million.
    Yeah, just ignore my post where I explain that I meant "billion" from the very beginning. I'm a retroactive liar as it is, I just didn't want to look like the retarded moron that I actually am for believing Poland receives fucking 15 million euros from the EU yearly. Trump's bathroom is probably worth more than 15 million.

  9. #749
    Quote Originally Posted by Noradin View Post
    That is not true, if they become accepted then they gain asylum not citizen status.
    They aren't free to move around, at least they wouldn't be if every country did their job and didn't sabotage each other (one half of them by claiming whoever first ascertains their identity has to keep them and the others by failing to note down their identity in response to that).
    Ohyeah I forgot Dublin was only briefly suspended.

  10. #750
    Legendary! Wikiy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pucek View Post
    It's a great ideal, but you're kidding yourself if you do not believe that Germany is pulling most (not all) of the strings in EU. Also as you mentioned calling out countries on how much they get from EU is condescending and yet *some* people even in here do it all the time.
    Even if they are pulling the strings, they're not being blocked by national representatives in the EU Parliament. And to be honest, I'm okay with Germans pulling strings. I'll say something shocking and controversial, but it's something many people in my country sort of feel deep down (even though they wouldn't admit it to themselves, let alone others). And it's this: I'll gladly take a 21st century German overlord. For crying out loud, their Chancellor is a quantum chemist. In my country, politicians don't realize we're not even a member state of important European research organizations (CERN, ESA, ESO, it goes on) and they don't give a single fuck, it seems.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Wow, you are obsessed. Do you live in Poland?

    Poland would be Putin's within a few years if they didn't have our support.
    Not because he would take it, but because they would beg him to take over.
    Pal, now you've stepped into insulting territory. This is only marginally better than saying that Jews would beg Nazis to do with them as they will. You do realize why that's a wrong thing to say, right?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Drop the one trillion claim. It's retarded.
    The almost total destruction of Warsaw is estimated at 55 billion dollars (2004 value, that's 70 billion in today's money) of damage in public property only. Private property that was destroyed (and a million people there lost almost all of their property, including 90% of the houses) amounts to several times that. Considering Warsaw is barely the only place in Poland that was systemically destroyed, the one trillion claim is actually quite sound, roughly speaking.

    600 billion is the estimated total economic cost incurred by German destruction of Poland. The Polish GDP was cut by two thirds during the War. Will you, please, for a moment, realize how many decades that can set a country back? Countries grow their GDP by 2-3% usually. Let's be generous and say 3%. It takes a country 35 years to increase its GDP 3 times at that rate. Not only was Poland set back 35 fucking years compared to pre-war levels, your country got aid from the Marshall plan and it was already rich from plundering the world through colonialism. You're at a 50 years' head start (at least) and have the gall to act so arrogant and superior.

    Now, back to the reparations. The fact that it might be silly to talk about reparations 70 years after a War is a different matter entirely. But Poland doesn't seriously expect Germany to pay that money. They don't even want that. 3/4 of all Poles don't want that. It's political rhetoric. The EU threatened with a bill that was pulled out of their ass, and Poland responded in kind. Sure, Poland needs to be threatened with something, but not a fucking bill out of nowhere.
    Last edited by Wikiy; 2017-09-18 at 09:58 PM.

  11. #751
    Quote Originally Posted by Wikiy View Post
    E
    Now, back to the reparations. The fact that it might be silly to talk about reparations 70 years after a War is a different matter entirely. But Poland doesn't seriously expect Germany to pay that money. They don't even want that. 3/4 of all Poles don't want that. It's political rhetoric. The EU threatened with a bill that was pulled out of their ass, and Poland responded in kind. Sure, Poland needs to be threatened with something, but not a fucking bill out of nowhere.
    It's not pulled out of nowhere. It's based on treaty violations by Poland. It's not that difficult to understand.
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  12. #752
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    It's not pulled out of nowhere. It's based on treaty violations by Poland. It's not that difficult to understand.
    All counties should really leave EU.

  13. #753
    Legendary! Wikiy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    It's not pulled out of nowhere. It's based on treaty violations by Poland. It's not that difficult to understand.
    The treaty said Poland would be financially fined if it backed out?

    I'm not arguing the fact that Poland should be somehow threatened/punished for going back on its word/EU responsibilities, I'm saying a fine isn't the way.

  14. #754
    The Unstoppable Force Mayhem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wikiy View Post
    Yeah, just ignore my post where I explain that I meant "billion" from the very beginning. I'm a retroactive liar as it is, I just didn't want to look like the retarded moron that I actually am for believing Poland receives fucking 15 million euros from the EU yearly. Trump's bathroom is probably worth more than 15 million.
    I overread that one, my bad, funny though that you actually calculated with 15 million.
    Quote Originally Posted by ash
    So, look um, I'm not a grief counselor, but if it's any consolation, I have had to kill and bury loved ones before. A bunch of times actually.
    Quote Originally Posted by PC2 View Post
    I never said I was knowledge-able and I wouldn't even care if I was the least knowledge-able person and the biggest dumb-ass out of all 7.8 billion people on the planet.

  15. #755
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mayhem View Post
    Do you have an answer to my question or did you gave up on your bullshit claim?
    Lol, what was the question?

  16. #756
    Quote Originally Posted by Wikiy View Post
    The treaty said Poland would be financially fined if it backed out?

    I'm not arguing the fact that Poland should be somehow threatened/punished for going back on its word/EU responsibilities, I'm saying a fine isn't the way.
    A fine is the way that is put down in the treaties. Lots of countries get investigated and some of us get fined. Heck, Germany got investigated for indebting itself too much a few years ago. It's how the EU enforces stuff.
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  17. #757
    Quote Originally Posted by Wikiy View Post
    The treaty said Poland would be financially fined if it backed out?

    I'm not arguing the fact that Poland should be somehow threatened/punished for going back on its word/EU responsibilities, I'm saying a fine isn't the way.
    Tbh, fines are the only way to really do this. Can't exactly go for military action and harsh words can easily be ignored. That leaves economic punishments, but since there are no tariffs or sanctions possible between EU countries, fines are all that is left. Can you think of something else (that does not boil down to just being a fine in disguise)?

  18. #758
    Quote Originally Posted by Wikiy View Post
    The treaty said Poland would be financially fined if it backed out?

    I'm not arguing the fact that Poland should be somehow threatened/punished for going back on its word/EU responsibilities, I'm saying a fine isn't the way.
    Yes, because that is a fairer and more feasible way to do it than to get them to pay back monies they recieved despite not meeting the criteria* attached to them.
    Better to just bill them a fine than have to bill for them what they would have to pay back plus for whatever amount of work and time it would take to calculate those sums and seperate them from everything else that is paid for as a group. Just look at the Brexit to see how much that would cost Poland to pay for all the hours of work spent on such matters.
    (*also known as keeping to the terms of the treaties they violated)

  19. #759
    Legendary! Wikiy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiri View Post
    Tbh, fines are the only way to really do this. Can't exactly go for military action and harsh words can easily be ignored. That leaves economic punishments, but since there are no tariffs or sanctions possible between EU countries, fines are all that is left. Can you think of something else (that does not boil down to just being a fine in disguise)?
    Well, this isn't exactly applicable to the current situation, but thinking a bit long-term, I think the EU should have an official kicking-out mechanism. In situations like these, plain and simple, the country would be threatened with being kicked out.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Noradin View Post
    Yes, because that is a fairer and more feasible way to do it than to get them to pay back monies they recieved despite not meeting the criteria* attached to them.
    Better to just bill them a fine than have to bill for them what they would have to pay back plus for whatever amount of work and time it would take to calculate those sums and seperate them from everything else that is paid for as a group. Just look at the Brexit to see how much that would cost Poland to pay for all the hours of work spent on such matters.
    (*also known as keeping to the terms of the treaties they violated)
    And you don't think the EU is looking a bit silly, pulling bills out of its ass every few weeks? I get reminded of the Blessed Exchequer from Star Trek.

  20. #760
    Deleted
    Germany is wrong in its denial to pay Poland taking into account Merkel's attempts to turn the EU against Poland. But, thanks God, Europe knows and sees that Poland is right and we are ready to defend ourselves and our rights. We are the best example to follow.

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