Should mythic raiding going forward be tuned to be as easy as Emerald nightmare was?

[Deleted]

you only needed 2/3 rogues for fights....do you not see the problem with that? No fight should need any specific class. Blizzard totes the bring the player not the class, yet still designs encounters where a specific class is needed. I don't raid seriously anymore because I have better things to do with my free time than raid/play wow. However still needing any number of x class is bad design no matter how you try and spin it.

I just gave the example of the raid comp of my guild. KJ doesn't need a single rogue anymore, we just happen to have two good and geared rogue player. In fact KJ doesn't even need any specific class anymore: Not even guardian druids (we Don't even have one), not even warlock (we have one, but we Don't have to use the portal trick) etc..
You could argue for avatar heavily favorising 2/3 rogues, but even then it's not an absolute requirement plenty of other class can do the job in P1 (DK, DH, Druid, Shaman...).
Having a super optimal raid comp only matter for top 50 guilds, not for top 300ish guilds and CERTAINLY not for top 500+ guilds.
Any guilds who say that they can't kill Avatar now because they Don't have 4 rogues is deluded.

[Spotnick]

For majority of current mythic guilds finishing mythic is out of reach but finishing heroic is a complete cakewalk done in 1-2 weeks tops.

the problem is there.. mythic guilds should go directly to mythic of the next raid and not even care about lower difficulties.

That's the most annoying part of raiding IMO, I have no idea why mythic is not opened first, and then other difficulties later.

They won't change it because it's too late, but that's the way it should have been.. open mythic only at least until the race is over, then unlock the other difficulties.. this completely remove split runs and let mythic raider discover the raid in the correct difficulty.

Plus you gain back the feeling of discovery we lost when they introduced multiple difficulties.

I don't think they would do it, but it would make a lot more sense that way... heroic/normal only raids wouldn't be happy just like LFR players are due to the delay, but I believe it would benefit the game in the long run... and would even make raiding more marketable to stream as content would not yet be available.

[Atreyes]

I don't think its so much the difficulty as much class/encounter balance and design that needs to change, its just been really poor lately.

Difficult fights are not a problem making fights that also require a certain comp is, guilds that might have the "skill" level to complete encounters are either forced into waiting for them to be heavily nerfed or recruiting so many people that half get left on the bench to get around things like avatar requiring 5 rgoues. Its just horrible class/raid balance when cetain classes are far too favored on certain fights (not talking about dps here of course there will always be dps difference)

[Deleted]

This is exactly why it should be easier or removed entirely.

so because certain players are too bad to raid mythic but could simple do heroic instead blizzard should remove mythic eventho it doesnt even concern those "shitty players"
logic? hello?

- - - Updated - - -

the problem is there.. mythic guilds should go directly to mythic of the next raid and not even care about lower difficulties.

That's the most annoying part of raiding IMO, I have no idea why mythic is not opened first, and then other difficulties later.

They won't change it because it's too late, but that's the way it should have been.. open mythic only at least until the race is over, then unlock the other difficulties.. this completely remove split runs and let mythic raider discover the raid in the correct difficulty.

Plus you gain back the feeling of discovery we lost when they introduced multiple difficulties.

I don't think they would do it, but it would make a lot more sense that way... heroic/normal only raids wouldn't be happy just like LFR players are due to the delay, but I believe it would benefit the game in the long run... and would even make raiding more marketable to stream as content would not yet be available.

but raids are balanced way better if blizzard can expect topguilds to have 4set on all dps classes... without splits progress would be a fucking shitshow of how many tokens you coin,on what classes etc etc
do you think its pure coincidence that bosses can be tuned to the extreme edge of almost not being doable dps wise?

[KaPe]

but raids are balanced way better if blizzard can expect topguilds to have 4set on all dps classes... without splits progress would be a fucking shitshow of how many tokens you coin,on what classes etc etc
do you think its pure coincidence that bosses can be tuned to the extreme edge of almost not being doable dps wise?

I don't see how this is a better option than allowing gear growth as a self nerfing mechanism. Sure, split raids aren't a new thing, but they were never as profitable as they are now. Not only you get all tier bonuses and important trinkets, you can get items that will be superior to standard mythic drops. The current system basically requires direct boss nerfs or huge class buffs like new traits/crucible. Plus balancing around such things only lead to even worse stacking than usual, even outside of the world first crowd.

[Deleted]

I don't see how this is a better option than allowing gear growth as a self nerfing mechanism. Sure, split raids aren't a new thing, but they were never as profitable as they are now. Not only you get all tier bonuses and important trinkets, you can get items that will be superior to standard mythic drops. The current system basically requires direct boss nerfs or huge class buffs like new traits/crucible. Plus balancing around such things only lead to even worse stacking than usual, even outside of the world first crowd.

if blizzards wants top guilds to have a hard time they have to design insanely tuned bosses and then later on nerf them. (thats what happened to augur,helya guldan and now avatar/kj aswell)

this is the correct thing to do to make it appealing for as many people as possible (hardcore players early on and more casual raiders later on.)
the only mistake blizzard made was making avatar too hard for a non endboss and just straight fucking up KJ

besides that theres no real point to cry about...
avatar for example is fairly easy now (compared to his first state)

[Sanguinerd]

so because certain players are too bad to raid mythic but could simple do heroic instead blizzard should remove mythic eventho it doesnt even concern those "shitty players"
logic? hello?

No, because it breeds elitism for people that DO raid mythic - such as the person whos comment I replied to.

"Certain" people think because they raid mythic they're worth more, know more, are better when in reality they're worth the same and often times are not better - they just have more time.

[Deleted]

No, because it breeds elitism for people that DO raid mythic - such as the person whos comment I replied to.

"Certain" people think because they raid mythic they're worth more, know more, are better when in reality they're worth the same and often times are not better - they just have more time.

How do you survive real life being so insecure? Should we also remove arena, so that you don't feel inferior when these mean gladiators poke fun at you in rbg?

The heavy nerfs to avatar (and in consequence kj) came a little bit too late - that's all what went wrong this tier.

[Adramelch]

That's the most annoying part of raiding IMO, I have no idea why mythic is not opened first, and then other difficulties later.
.

Because it would create riots.

[Sanguinerd]

How do you survive real life being so insecure? Should we also remove arena, so that you don't feel inferior when these mean gladiators poke fun at you in rbg?

The heavy nerfs to avatar (and in consequence kj) came a little bit too late - that's all what went wrong this tier.

Same as you I imagine, the difference once again is I don't look down on people and make bullshit assumptions like you.

[telerithis]

Imagine if this tier had ended with Avatar. That's how hard a tier should be.

[Derecho]

I'm kind of torn about this.

I raid with a guild that clears heroic pretty early on in a tier, but may struggle to find a solid 20 for Mythic. So, when we do have the 20, we can only progress to the first few bosses of a tier before the next raid tier hits.

In contrast, we cleared Mythic EN. It was challenging enough to be harder than heroic, but no hard walls for us really after Ursoc's DPS check and learning how not to burst a million oozes on eye.

I would enjoy it if mythic difficulty was akin to EN, but I also understand if it stays like it currently is.

[Noxina]

To everyone that voted (and will vote) "no": show your helya, gul'dan and kj mythic kills proof or SHUT THE FUCK UP!

Why? I don't raid mythic anymore, pleased with Heroic. But I do feel Mythic should be hard, extremely hard. Heck, make it even harder than what it currently is. Clearing a Mythic raid as current tier is something only the best of the best should be able to do, same as with PvP and top ranks.
Everything shouldn't be doable by most of the playerbase, us who don't have the skill and/or time to clear Mythic have Heroic and Normal to do. And for those who have cleared HC, they can start progressing slowly through Mythic and see how far they get.

[Marrilaife]

Why? I don't raid mythic anymore, pleased with Heroic. But I do feel Mythic should be hard, extremely hard. Heck, make it even harder than what it currently is.

Because it resembles the tale of the gardener's dog, won't eat himself but won't let others either.

Way too many heroic raiders in this thread who want mythic to be only for the hardcorest of the hardcorest so they have even stronger reasoning to not participate in it.

If I don't participate in something, let's say RBG or pet battles, I don't go around saying how it should be organized, because I believe it's best left to people who use the system and see the flaws and potential improvements from their own experience.

But there are plenty people who for some reason don't raid mythic and want it to be some unobtainable unicorn or even deleted from the game. By now, I started thinking they're just the second side of the coin of posters who perpetually create threads to delete lfr from the game (most of them don't care to use lfr either in the first place).

If you don't use it, and don't intend to use it, what does it harm you that other people use it and want it to be usable?

[Deleted]

No, because it breeds elitism for people that DO raid mythic - such as the person whos comment I replied to.

"Certain" people think because they raid mythic they're worth more, know more, are better when in reality they're worth the same and often times are not better - they just have more time.

someone who raids mythic knows more than someone who doesnt and therefor is better as in having the experience
and if you ask a question about mythic difficulty the opinion of mythicraiders will have more value than the opinion of heroic raiders simply because they dont know what they are talking about - thats not elitism its just logic.

if you havent done it yourself then dont judge it - its not elitism if a mythic player of a certain level tells you how things are or are not.
having mythic be as easy as EN would be just awfully boring - do you wonna call that elitism now aswell? because i said EN was too easy? or do you see the point im making?

[Sanguinerd]

someone who raids mythic knows more than someone who doesnt and therefor is better as in having the experience
and if you ask a question about mythic difficulty the opinion of mythicraiders will have more value than the opinion of heroic raiders simply because they dont know what they are talking about - thats not elitism its just logic.

if you havent done it yourself then dont judge it - its not elitism if a mythic player of a certain level tells you how things are or are not.
having mythic be as easy as EN would be just awfully boring - do you wonna call that elitism now aswell? because i said EN was too easy? or do you see the point im making?

Since you've failed to realise the point of my first reply I'm not going to bother explaining or reading yours now.

[Deleted]

Since you've failed to realise the point of my first reply I'm not going to bother explaining or reading yours now.

i did understand what you were trying to say, im just pointing out to you that it is a completely made up "problem"
actual elitism is mostly easily spotted (because these people dont know what theyre talking about.) and can therefor be ignored.

saying mythic raiding breeds elitism is simply an actual retarded statement.
there will always be a better player - doesnt mean hes elitist.

[stablon]

No. Yes.

While I agree the mythic bosses should be tough, at the current level some bosses seem like they can break guilds apart easily before the nerfs come in. Although, I've raided hardcore in the past, I cannot imagine wiping near 1000 times on a boss and still willing to continue. In the end, seeing the top end guilds having such a hard time on those bosses, I don't even think about going into mythic raids.

Also the current level of reward it offers is quite problematic. I play around 5-10 hours max a week, doing my dailies, clearing normal+heroic ToS, and have 935 ilvl already. Considering the top guild in the world have an average ilvl of 943 right now, why the fuck would I make myself go through all that?

[Noxina]

Because it resembles the tale of the gardener's dog, won't eat himself but won't let others either.

Way too many heroic raiders in this thread who want mythic to be only for the hardcorest of the hardcorest so they have even stronger reasoning to not participate in it.

If I don't participate in something, let's say RBG or pet battles, I don't go around saying how it should be organized, because I believe it's best left to people who use the system and see the flaws and potential improvements from their own experience.

But there are plenty people who for some reason don't raid mythic and want it to be some unobtainable unicorn or even deleted from the game. By now, I started thinking they're just the second side of the coin of posters who perpetually create threads to delete lfr from the game (most of them don't care to use lfr either in the first place).

If you don't use it, and don't intend to use it, what does it harm you that other people use it and want it to be usable?

I have raided mythic (previous heroic) since it became a thing, I love that there is one thing in this game that still is a challenge and removing it would be a blow to the face for a lot of players. I've never been a realm first, or even top 10 realm first in clearing Mythic, but I've always had Mythic to look forward to when we had HC on farm, something to continue to progress in as raid tiers last for several months, and the last one quickly lasts for a year.
Making Mythic too easy would just resault in it to be cleared too fast thus giving us no content to look forward to progressing in.

I get that the more casuals wants to clear out Mythic before it gets old content, and that is what is wrong with how things are right now. Everyone excepts/wants to be able to do everything no matter what their skill level is.

Keep Mythic hard, or make it a tad bit harder so even the top guilds will have problems clearing it the first two weeks, then do as they did with ICC - add a increasing buff to the raiders that increases their stats each week.

[Marrilaife]

Keep Mythic hard, or make it a tad bit harder so even the top guilds will have problems clearing it the first two weeks, then do as they did with ICC - add a increasing buff to the raiders that increases their stats each week.

That's exactly what they're doing since TOV, and in NH and in TOS - release mythic hard, then gradually nerf it. I don't think "harder than that" makes sense since even top guilds expressed displeasement with mythic KJ, so it means even the people it was made for - world class raiders - didn't enjoy it, so it was a big miss tuning and design wise.

Current post-nerf post-crucible tuning of TOS seems more in reach of many mythic guilds - Mistress kills are well over a thousand now, Avatar and KJ kills are rolling in, however indeed a more gradual approach would probably be better, these bosses were a wall for many guilds, and we're already 3 months into TOS. Current design means there is a number of fairly easy bosses for a guild and then they're "stuck" on a boss, then it gets nerfed and suddenly tons of kills are flowing in. It's not ideal.

NH had similar breakpoints - tons of guilds stuck on Krosus, then tons of "better than that" guilds stuck on Augur. Krosus, however, was a very simple boss in comparison to Mistress (barely changed from his hc version, with no new mechanics, just upped frequency and strength of old ones), so he was a properly designed wall - a basic coordination and dps check. The problem with that was the conjunction with AP farm, many people realized that the most probable way of beating Krosus is just grind out your artifact since guild members won't suddenly start parsing 90% if they parsed let's say 70% usually, so it burnt out many guilds by "forced AP farm".

Mistress on the other hand doesn't become simpler by upping your dps, you actually have to be very careful when you kill the eels, you can also fuckup the most common tactic by phasing boss too fast and changing the order in which she will cast abilities, and there are many rng overlaps of abilities. It's actually silly we've had easier time on Mistress rekill this week because a dps killed himself early with the shark - last week we had a lot of "omg stop dps ffs" moments.

On the other hand, Cenarius was actually a boss that posed challenge even to top guilds at the beginning (even if not the levels of other bosses in later raids), but was a boss that got easier with more dps because you skipped nasty overlaps or even a whole phase. Early EN bosses had similar thing to it, for example skipping last platform on Elerethe or shortening the enraged part on Ursoc.

Can't lie, I prefer bosses that get easier with more gear / more dps than just stay the same. I think the problem with EN wasn't the design, was the lack of foresight from Blizzard how much m+ / titanforge is gonna up the average ilvl of raiders and how fast. That, and unfinished Xavius. Other bosses were actually not a "joke" level when done in intended gear, and tbh if my memory serves me well, a lot of these "average mythic guilds" who usually kill stuff post nerfs barely managed with finishing EN when TOV launched.

Thing is, cutting edge Xavius was not removed with TOV, was removed with NH, same with cutting edge Helya, wasn't removed with NH, was removed with TOS, so there are many guilds who boast "cutting edge" despite killing the boss after the next raid was already well out. That is skewing the memory of people who considered the instance super easy, because they approached it with months and months of gear and artifact traits.

So from my perspective, TOS is a miss, making mythic "even harder" would be detrimental (since even Method and Exorsus didn't enjoy it seemingly), and EN wasn't a flop overall, only Xavius was, and the m+ gear / AP gains cheapened it too quickly (not even mentioning the guilds who finished it in December, called the place easy forgetting their AP did huge part of the work). Another issue with EN was no tier bonuses means you could really just farm m+ and be "as geared" as required, NH and TOS are tuned around people having set bonuses not just pure ilvl.

That can be short-cut with splits but most middle of the pack mythic guilds don't split run, only the hardcore guilds do, while everyone could just spam m+ during EN. Also since then Blizzard nerfed m+ in attempt to curb the flow of "free gear" coming in and to turn m+ more into a "weekly lockout" thing you do for the chest than something you spam 24/7. Lots of people were upset over it, but personally I feel the power creep is way too high and any attempts to limit it are worth a try. The fault was not in the design of EN as a raid (except Xavius), the fault was in the systems that created power creep that went too quickly in comparison to Blizzard's expectation.