Net nerf for Havoc next week

[Shutyertrap]

The single target is still high, but the utility is still huge. Thats the reason why highend guilds still prefer Havocs over anything but rogues and warriors atm.

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...&timespan=1000

You say that, but there are 45 parse for afflock, 31 for unholy, 56 for shadow, 36 for frost mage, 76 for balance, 43 for destro, 55 for marks parses for mythic KJ compared to 32 for DH - all those sepcs pulling higher dps and bringing utility for the encounter. This is not including the count for warrior and rogues for their high damage+utility. Just because there aren't enough enhance or ret or frost dk doesn't mean it is ok to have less DH or vice versa. Each one of those specs have their own issues, for example we knew for a while wind-walkers were in a bad place and needed a buff and they just received the largest one with netherlight crucible tuning.

When someone brings up the 'whole package' point to judge a dps spec that is performing poorly, reminds me of GC era hybrid tax justification blizzard would try to pass on us pointing out that the particular under-performing spec had "other supporting utilities" to bring beside dps. What raid utility I bring as a DH are an addition to my spec and not something I should be penalized for in terms of dps, nor it is a justification for a spec's under-performance when just last tier we were at a competitive position. Our T20 set bonus is underwhelming, our T21 so far is barely even worth taking. There is no debate that at this tier we are neither the best at single target dps, nor at the top for cleave fights and our sustain damage is simply lackluster.

[Deleted]

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...2051×pan=1000

You say that, but there are 45 parse for afflock, 31 for unholy, 56 for shadow, 36 for frost mage, 76 for balance, 43 for destro, 55 for marks parses for mythic KJ compared to 32 for DH - all those sepcs pulling higher dps and bringing utility for the encounter. This is not including the count for warrior and rogues for their high damage+utility. Just because there aren't enough enhance or ret or frost dk doesn't mean it is ok to have less DH or vice versa. Each one of those specs have their own issues, for example we knew for a while wind-walkers were in a bad place and needed a buff and they just received the largest one with netherlight crucible tuning.

When someone brings up the 'whole package' point to judge a dps spec that is performing poorly, reminds me of GC era hybrid tax justification blizzard would try to pass on us pointing out that the particular under-performing spec had "other supporting utilities" to bring beside dps. What raid utility I bring as a DH are an addition to my spec and not something I should be penalized for in terms of dps, nor it is a justification for a spec's under-performance when just last tier we were at a competitive position. Our T20 set bonus is underwhelming, our T21 so far is barely even worth taking. There is no debate that at this tier we are neither the best at single target dps, nor at the top for cleave fights and our sustain damage is simply lackluster.

We compare melees to melees. It makes no sense to compare with ranged cause raiding is always ranged friendly.

But as i said, even in good mythic raids DHs are popular.

If you are afraid you will be benched because of bad DPS - no way. Because of their utility DHs are picked pretty often. And not every group has 4 or 5 rogues to pick. One month ago we had zero.

And our DH is always part of our raidteam. Never benched in progress. Me (currently enhance) is the liability. Our DH soaks every 60sec in p1. He is one of our most important players in FA progress. Enhance might look stronger in warcraftlogs, you can pick only 1 or 2 useless melees like enhance fury feral etc.

That is probably the reason Blizzard saw no need to buff DHs more than 3%. Enhance is for mostly useless topping metres, Havoc is useful to kill the boss.

Havoc is only "bad" for topping the LOLz metres.

Actually, it is one of the best single target specs
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...ssdps&sample=7

[Deix-EU]

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...y=4&dataset=90

See what i did there ?

Am i playing this right?

Yep, but the game stops here for you. Because 404 Not Found you will find when trying to search for another "mid" ranking for DH Havoc in ToS.

[Pigglix]

Tbh if we use the same sample and change to "player dmg to boss", out of 9 fights, havoc is on the upper middle on 5.

So eh, not bad.

[Shirofune]

Tbh if we use the same sample and change to "player dmg to boss", out of 9 fights, havoc is on the upper middle on 5.

So eh, not bad.

Which says a lot considering our aoe and cleave is shit. In a st fight we should be reliably topping.

[Shutyertrap]

That is probably the reason Blizzard saw no need to buff DHs more than 3%. Enhance is for mostly useless topping metres, Havoc is useful to kill the boss.

I guess I can't disagree with you there.

[Deleted]

Which says a lot considering our aoe and cleave is shit. In a st fight we should be reliably topping.

Thats why Havoc is best spec on Maid. Sometimes kill times dont line up well for Havoc.

Additionally if everyone does the same damage you should be equal in every other department too. I want an immunity like Havoc, insane burst and that mobility - wtf.

There is a reason why Havoc is so desirable for mythic progression, even if it isnt always the best ST. Half of the melees feels currently useless for mythic progression.

[Shirofune]

Thats why Havoc is best spec on Maid. Sometimes kill times dont line up well for Havoc.

Additionally if everyone does the same damage you should be equal in every other department too. I want an immunity like Havoc, insane burst and that mobility - wtf.

There is a reason why Havoc is so desirable for mythic progression, even if it isnt always the best ST. Half of the melees feels currently useless for mythic progression.

Havoc is the best for Maiden because we're a burst front loaded class and we happen to sync our CDs with the extra damage phases of the boss. That doesn't make us good for Single Target, that makes us good because the boss is made for us. It's not about the kill time either (even though it affects, but it does for every class with CDs)

There're at least 3 ST bosses in Tomb in which we're, at best, mid-top of the pack. (Goroth, Sisters, Avatar).

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...t=99&boss=2032
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...t=99&boss=2050
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...t=99&boss=2038

And those bosses don't have the special "yo hit me in this phase while your CDs are up" phase. They're more normal.

Meanwhile, this is what happens when any form of Cleave or AoE is present:

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...t=99&boss=2048
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...t=99&boss=2037

That's exactly what I'm saying. Balance Druids do similar ST DPS to us, yet destroy us in any form of cleave/AoE. Sure, they don't have an immunity, but does that pay off? Look at warrior arms, they don't have any immunity either and they're taken because of their damage exclusively.

I don't know which people you're raiding with, but Havoc IS NOT desirable for raiding as it stands on Mythic raiding.

Half the classes have some form of immunity, and even if they don't, rogues are still a thing. Hell, even DKs can soak more reliably than we do. Havoc doesn't bring anything good to raiding outside of that single boss called Maiden in which we're not even that ahead from the rest of the pack even when everything beneficts us.

And anyway, if my class output is going to suck because I just soak very well, better rename the class to Soak Hunter. We're a DPS class, we HAVE to do DPS.

[psyquest]

Havoc is the best for Maiden because we're a burst front loaded class and we happen to sync our CDs with the extra damage phases of the boss. That doesn't make us good for Single Target, that makes us good because the boss is made for us. It's not about the kill time either (even though it affects, but it does for every class with CDs)

There're at least 3 ST bosses in Tomb in which we're, at best, mid-top of the pack. (Goroth, Sisters, Avatar).

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...t=99&boss=2032
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...t=99&boss=2050
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...t=99&boss=2038

And those bosses don't have the special "yo hit me in this phase while your CDs are up" phase. They're more normal.

Meanwhile, this is what happens when any form of Cleave or AoE is present:

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...t=99&boss=2048
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...t=99&boss=2037

That's exactly what I'm saying. Balance Druids do similar ST DPS to us, yet destroy us in any form of cleave/AoE. Sure, they don't have an immunity, but does that pay off? Look at warrior arms, they don't have any immunity either and they're taken because of their damage exclusively.

I don't know which people you're raiding with, but Havoc IS NOT desirable for raiding as it stands on Mythic raiding.

Half the classes have some form of immunity, and even if they don't, rogues are still a thing. Hell, even DKs can soak more reliably than we do. Havoc doesn't bring anything good to raiding outside of that single boss called Maiden in which we're not even that ahead from the rest of the pack even when everything beneficts us.

And anyway, if my class output is going to suck because I just soak very well, better rename the class to Soak Hunter. We're a DPS class, we HAVE to do DPS.

Thanks for a well written post. I hope people will stop arguing, but who am I kidding? Your post lay out rather logically and with logs what the issue is with havoc dps. Lets hope someone at blizzard understands and do something for next patch.

[Deleted]

Thanks for a well written post. I hope people will stop arguing, but who am I kidding? Your post lay out rather logically and with logs what the issue is with havoc dps. Lets hope someone at blizzard understands and do something for next patch.

Well as long as soaking is very very important, classes with strong utility = soaks should do less dps.

If everyone deals the same damage, half of the melee specs would be useless.

And soaking stuff costs dps. On Goroth our DH solo soaks areas 20 or 30m away. Of course his dps is a little lower.

Look at herioc when DHs dont have to soak.

Additionally: if a class is too powerful (strong defensives and very mobile) and others are weaker in both, so others need to be stronger dps wise.

As Blizzard said:
Everyone should bring something to the raid.

It is one of the biggest issues that some specs offer best dps + strongest utility.

Additionally: padding on cleave fights isnt important.

[Shirofune]

Well as long as soaking is very very important, classes with strong utility = soaks should do less dps.

If everyone deals the same damage, half of the melee specs would be useless.

And soaking stuff costs dps. On Goroth our DH solo soaks areas 20 or 30m away. Of course his dps is a little lower.

Look at herioc when DHs dont have to soak.

Additionally: if a class is too powerful (strong defensives and very mobile) and others are weaker in both, so others need to be stronger dps wise.

As Blizzard said:
Everyone should bring something to the raid.

It is one of the biggest issues that some specs offer best dps + strongest utility.

Additionally: padding on cleave fights isnt important.

Well, that's the same argument as the hybrid tax. You know what happened eventually? Hybrids no longer exist in terms of raiding. A ret paladin isn't doing less DPS than other classes because they can heal, instead the support capabilities were pruned.

And anyway, where are rogues in your equation? Sub rogues are currently among the best ST DPSers of the game while having a lot of AoE DPS if they spec for it (legendary cloak) and they're also the kings of soaking and utility. That alone takes all your arguments.

The issue is that Blizzard fucked up a whole tier, both in mechanics and DPS balance. Hopefully that'll be fixed next patch.

And what Blizzard said is "bring the player, not the class".

Also, is not padding of those adds have to die. Padding was doing damage to the copies of Mythic Botanist. Cleaving in DI isn't padding, nor is killing the adds of Misstress.

[Deleted]

Every tier is fucked up the same!

The difference in NH between top and botton was 15%, now it is 11%.

Btw it isnt about hybrid tax. Every spec should bring something to the raid.

Btw Sub is pretty bad in warcraftlogs overall dmg:

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/13

And overall isnt that important. It is screwed by AOE dmg from a very unimportant boss.

But buffing one of the best melees isnt necessary.

[Deleted]

Every tier is fucked up the same!

The difference in NH between top and botton was 15%, now it is 11%.

Btw it isnt about hybrid tax. Every spec should bring something to the raid.

Btw Sub is pretty bad in warcraftlogs overall dmg:

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/13

And overall isnt that important. It is screwed by AOE dmg from a very unimportant boss.

But buffing one of the best melees isnt necessary.

Overall Damage means absolute jackshit.

[Pigglix]

Soo with the first batch of ptr notes just released, are those buffs to havoc or just tooltip fixes?

[Donimic]

Havoc is the best for Maiden because we're a burst front loaded class and we happen to sync our CDs with the extra damage phases of the boss. That doesn't make us good for Single Target, that makes us good because the boss is made for us. It's not about the kill time either (even though it affects, but it does for every class with CDs)

There're at least 3 ST bosses in Tomb in which we're, at best, mid-top of the pack. (Goroth, Sisters, Avatar).

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...t=99&boss=2032
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...t=99&boss=2050
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...t=99&boss=2038

And those bosses don't have the special "yo hit me in this phase while your CDs are up" phase. They're more normal.

Meanwhile, this is what happens when any form of Cleave or AoE is present:

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...t=99&boss=2048
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...t=99&boss=2037

That's exactly what I'm saying. Balance Druids do similar ST DPS to us, yet destroy us in any form of cleave/AoE. Sure, they don't have an immunity, but does that pay off? Look at warrior arms, they don't have any immunity either and they're taken because of their damage exclusively.

I don't know which people you're raiding with, but Havoc IS NOT desirable for raiding as it stands on Mythic raiding.

Half the classes have some form of immunity, and even if they don't, rogues are still a thing. Hell, even DKs can soak more reliably than we do. Havoc doesn't bring anything good to raiding outside of that single boss called Maiden in which we're not even that ahead from the rest of the pack even when everything beneficts us.

And anyway, if my class output is going to suck because I just soak very well, better rename the class to Soak Hunter. We're a DPS class, we HAVE to do DPS.

can you idiots please stop linking 99th percentile parses. There are way too many outstanding variables at that level. it makes your complete argument null. I literally didn't even read the rest of your post because you are linking such ridiculous numbers. Even if your point is completely valid otherwise, I'll never know because your what you consider "proof" is shit.

[Deleted]

Overall Damage means absolute jackshit.

That is what i meant. You need to analyze a lot, look at each fight, what damage is purely metres padding, who has to do mechanics (like our DHs have to solo soak at Goroth areas 20 to 30y away, trsnsport ink etc - all of that costs dps although it is very very important).

- - - Updated - - -

Soo with the first batch of ptr notes just released, are those buffs to havoc or just tooltip fixes?

This build is a dummy build. Nothing happened.

[Shutyertrap]

can you idiots please stop linking 99th percentile parses. There are way too many outstanding variables at that level. it makes your complete argument null. I literally didn't even read the rest of your post because you are linking such ridiculous numbers. Even if your point is completely valid otherwise, I'll never know because your what you consider "proof" is shit.

I guess it is hard to use the pull down menu to choose your own percentile from WCL...

But hey! not my proof to defend!

[Shirofune]

can you idiots please stop linking 99th percentile parses. There are way too many outstanding variables at that level. it makes your complete argument null. I literally didn't even read the rest of your post because you are linking such ridiculous numbers. Even if your point is completely valid otherwise, I'll never know because your what you consider "proof" is shit.

First, you might be idiot seeing as you can easily switch the percentiles in the logs I provided if they don't suit your expectations.

Second, we Mythic raiders aim for the best performance possible, so comparing with low percentiles ain't exactly how we do things. That's why I linked 99th parses, 'cause that shows the nearly best performance for the class in a given boss. I could link the 100th parse but that's bullshit.

[Nitromonger]

The numbers don't really look any better at lower percentile ranks. DH swaps places in a couple of situations, but nothing earth shattering. Thankfully my guild isn't raiding cutting edge progression and my class hasn't held us back thus far.

[Avada Kedavra]

It does not matter if i parse @95 percentile or 75 or 50. Most dps specs currently out there will do bigger numbers at the same percentile, and the specs that do even worse than us, have better spec to switch to if they so desire. I don't think there are a lot of people here who claim to play perfectly. no one does.



why would a dh care about the state of another spec? besides, just looking at the avg parses of all ToS encounters, wws are above DHs.

LOL please link something that even REMOTELY has WW above DH, id love to see that.