Finland’s Welfare State Has a Massive Baby Problem

[Elim Garak]

What seems to be the problem? When Finns die out - the Finland area will be repopulated by other people. The population of Earth is constantly increasing. The human race is safe. Finns are fucked.

[ingsve]

Opening the doors to immigrants is a political no-go area

Well, there's your problem...The whole situation has an easy solution but if you are too racist to go with that solution then you might just have to lie in the bed you made.

[Elim Garak]

Well, there's your problem...The whole situation has an easy solution but if you are too racist to go with that solution then you might just have to lie in the bed you made.

The easy solution is to do nothing. There's no immediate danger. And no one sane enough should care about what happens after they die.

[Lex Icon]

what about the countries that you'd be importing all of these immigrants from? what are they supposed to do about the decline in their population?

[Elim Garak]

Sane people do not care about their children and grandchildren?

Not what I said at all.

[Puupi]

Your grandchildren should barring tragedy survive your death by a significant margin. If you do not care about what happens after you die, you do not care about what happens to your grandchildren.

It's quite clear he doesn't have children.

[Elim Garak]

Your grandchildren should barring tragedy survive your death by a significant margin. If you do not care about what happens after you die, you do not care about what happens to your grandchildren.

Not what I said. You keep missing the important bit. Sane people do not care about what happens to their children and grandchildren AFTER they die (overprotective parents do, seriously unless you die very young you grandchildren should be a concern for your kids and your kids are adults - leave them the fuck alone), because they have no control over it and when you are dead - you just don't care, you just don't, you just aren't.

[Techno-Druid]

Well just giving third world shit holes a lot of money and telling them to improve themselves doesn't really work...

See:
All of the third world shit holes that exist today.

Just giving them money won't do much, you would have to invest in the infrastructure of the country while creating stable jobs for the people.

Most developing nations are actually growing an at pretty fast rate, especially African countries like Kenya, Ethiopia, Rwanda and Angola. Many of these countries are being invested on by China and to a lesser extent India and Japan.

[Deleted]

Actually look at the OP's post. Finland has a problem keeping the welfare state running. The obvious solution is immigration. It's worked well in Canada, U.S. etc

Canada has very strict rules about immigration, much more strict than anywhere in Europe.

If that's the example to follow, Europe has to close the borders.

[Tackhisis]

Blame Capitalism. When you are trying hard to maintain a certain consumption level, you cannot think about the family.

[Kokolums]

The Amish have perhaps the highest birth rates in the world. This is Amish life:

1. Get married at 18.
2. Have 6-10 kids.
3. Retire around age 40 and your kids support you the rest of your life.

Their culture doesn't make them financially rich but it provides them with the closest thing to a bullet-proof economic safety net in existence. It doesn't matter to them if the government runs into debt, or if the stock market collapses. At age 40, they can kick up their heels and relax and enjoy retirement stress free. The only thing it requires is that you have LOTS of kids trained well in running farmland.

On the other side, you have a place like Finland, which has a government safety net with large government programs. This seems to actually disincentivize having kids. If you have a lot of kids in a culture like Finland, it just means more work. You have more paperwork to fill out, insurance, medical, schooling. and there's no payoff because you don't need those kids to support you later in life. The government will support you.

So you have all of these government programs and they are actually killing the society that created it. Meanwhile, a society that shuns government and relies on itself is thriving and growing exponentially.

[Elim Garak]

The Amish have the highest birth rates in the world. This is Amish life:

There's no life in Amish land.

[Sharein]

need immigration to keep the welfare state going

Bit of a contradiction here.

[Zuben]

Welfare system is balancing multiple mutually incompatible elements in society. We want both the individual to have freedom and to take care them, but the populace's general cost to society increases at the same rate with their freedom. Allow us to drink booze without regulation, you'll get more alcoholics putting pressure on healthcare costs. Allow us to move abroad, we will no longer provide income to the nation. Allow us not to procreate, we will deny the country future tax payers. So on and so forth.

Another problem is the ratio of tax vs benefit. The more you make, the bigger your tax per cent, but also the more you make the less you need welfare. The biggest beneficiaries are those who contribute the least, while those who contribute the most benefit the least. So we have well-to-do/rich people moving out of Finland. They should have the freedom to do so, yes? One would think so, but I've been seeing opposing attitudes lately. Citizens are more seen as the nation's "property", cashcows to upkeep the system.

That's why alcohol is heavily regulated in Finland, because otherwise we'd see rising costs in free healthcare. Right now we have a very public process of renewing our alcohol laws, but it seems it's not taking that many steps forward, and if certain politicians will have their way, it will be some steps backward. Then, as stated in the article, Antti Rinne had the gal to urge women to make more babies, when you'd think having babies is an extremely personal matter. Finally, there was a proposition of a farewell-tax, where anyone moving abroad would be taxed a per cent of their wealth. It was shot down, for now, but who knows how desperate proponents of welfare will get.

Welfare is a wonderful thing to have. As a relatively healthy, full-time employed citizen I haven't made much use of it, but it's relaxing to know that if I happened to get cancer or something, the nation will pay the bills for my treatment. Walter White wouldn't have needed to cook meth had he lived in Finland. This safety net just needs a solid upkeep plan, one that doesn't impede on western ideals like individual freedom. We should be allowed to indulge in our legal vices and live as we want without national doctrine steering us toward a certain lifestyle. The downside of welfare is that it largely removes individual's responsibility for themselves. You can hit rock bottom and you'd still have a roof over your head, monthly income to sustain yourself and free healthcare to treat your maladies. I've met people who have proudly professed how they have no intention of doing anything about their addiction. And somehow they still have an image of the rich as leeches. That's how fucked up Finnish welfare is, and as you can take from the article's message, it just might break at some point.

[Cannibalus]

If you allow women to exist without the support of a man (i.e. welfare/UBI or alimony in the USA), then they won't have babies. Tie a woman's survival and wellbeing to having a husband supporting her, then she has no choice but to fulfill her marital, spousal duties of providing him sex and children.

Governments, it's simple. Want your nation to survive? Depower women. Look at all the third-world nations like India, Somalia, Pakistan and our (Western Europe's) past history, when we had healthy birthrates. If you remove a woman's ability to work, inherit, financially support themselves and marry outside of arranged marriages, then they can focus less on working or fretting over a suitor and more on their primary function: carrying new life to term.

You know how indecisive women are. Their addled, small minds can't concentrate on more than one thing at a time without becoming frazzled and over-heated. Why else are cases of stress, depression and suicide skyrocketing in the west? Remove these hard decisions, have women focus on only one thing (child rearing), and our society will be much happier. I think Thomas Jefferson couldn't have said it more eloquently: "We hold these truths to be sacred & undeniable; that all men are created equal & independent, that from that equal creation they derive rights inherent & inalienable, among which are the preservation of life, & liberty, & the pursuit of happiness." Preserve life, liberate our women from worries and give them happiness with a dedication to motherhood.


[Infracted]

I really thought SJWs were retarded. You just took 1st place.

[Deleted]

I'm a American currently living in Finland. Immigration will only make things worse. The Finnish people unlike many European countries really only want to employ people that speak Finnish. Even if almost the whole country can understand English they are so caught up on their language. It's not as progressive as Sweden or Germany in those regards.it also takes a very small amount of immigrants compared to other countries. The solution is within the people themselves and their inability to adapt like the rest of Europe. Just a month ago Finland had its first terrorist attack in history. Then people are becoming even more racist than before to take in foreigners.

- - - Updated - - -

I really thought SJWs were retarded. You just took 1st place.

He's not completely wrong. There Is Direct CORELATION Between The two.

A women is much less likely to be employed if they have kids than a man with kids. A women that has a kid will have a higher chance to not be promoted or get more pay. Now that men and women can both have careers in western society it creates problems. Finland is also home to one of the world's most equal wage gap between genders. The only one stupid are those refusing to see both sides of the argument to come to a conclusion. Also don't use words like retard unless you are asking for a ban.

[Fugus]

Full disclosure, I have not read the comments thus far, just read the original post and skimmed the first page. Just responding first post.

One question I can't help but wonder. Is this an economy where both parents would be required to work or would one parent be able to stay home with the child and still have a decent living?

If it requires both parents to work or they live in poverty, then that is one of the major factors. People complain about people having children before they are ready, this is what happens when that happens in this economy. Using the US as a measuring stick, if people followed that saying, our population would be cut in more than half relatively quickly if things stay as they are.

[Deleted]

I don't think we should force our women to pop out babies all the time.
Why can't we help Sweden and Germany by taking in immigrants? We barely take in any.

[Elim Garak]

I don't think we should force our women to pop out babies all the time.
Why can't we help Sweden and Germany by taking in immigrants? We barely take in any.

Because there's no room for more people

[Lahis]

Because there's no room for more people

I'm feeling claustrophobic from looking at that image.