Remember how there was 'no evidence' that the Trump campaign was wiretapped?

[Shalcker]

So Manafort is saying they can do what they already did with the intercepts? It's a freebie, apparently you fell for it.

No, he is asking for those to be released so that he would be cleared in "court of public opinion" from "treason/collusion" charges (because Mueller investigation can take years as everyone keeps telling here).

And that whoever leaked the fact about FISA warrant on him to press is guilty of felony.

Are you not reading your links?

How is that relevant to statement from Manafort spokesman?

No article gives actual clear link between supposed indictment (that hasn't came about yet) and those FISA recordings - all connection so far is only "happened to same person", no leaks showing that this info actually led to anything.

[Felya]

Technically, Trump was wiretaped. You have to understand that to fit the narrative, you don't need to have "Trump himself" being wiretaped. Just having Trump being wiretaped during a private meeting because of manafort is enough to pour oil over the fire.

This thread is a giant scemantic debate over whether Trump was wiretaped or not. The reality is that the Trump campain was, even if only indirectly.

Whether or not you consider this horrible or not news worthy is something else entirely.

This doesn't prove that either and ignores the fact that Trump said that Trump tower was wiretapped. It's pretty cut and dry that he was wrong and DOJ confirmed he was wrong just a couple of weeks ago.

[Zandalarian Paladin]

This doesn't prove that either and ignores the fact that Trump said that Trump tower was wiretapped. It's pretty cut and dry that he was wrong and DOJ confirmed he was wrong just a couple of weeks ago.

Of course, I'm not saying you're wrong.

I'm simply stating that this is all it takes for their side to go "HA! Told ya!".

[Felya]

Of course, I'm not saying you're wrong.

I'm simply stating that this is all it takes for their side to go "HA! Told ya!".

Not sides, liars:

You do know that stuff said by public people don't just magically disappear from the internet right?

If this is semantics, there is no such thing as Trump being wrong.

[NYC17]

Of course, I'm not saying you're wrong.

I'm simply stating that this is all it takes for their side to go "HA! Told ya!".

No. it isn't.

[Zandalarian Paladin]

Not sides, liars:



If this is semantics, there is no such thing as Trump being wrong.

Well there has never been anything such a Trump being wrong, because he built his personae around that. People who say he's wrong are the enemies. They're against him and just try to (his words, not mine) obstruct him.

That's what a "cult of personality" is, basically. You immunise yourself to criticism by just yelling louder, which in turn makes your base yell louder.

So, they're not necessarily liars, just dishonest. They'd rather spin an alternate reality to reinforce their belief. That's nothing new, sadly, and it has been used throughout the past twenty years in politics.

[NYC17]

Well there has never been anything such a Trump being wrong, because he built his personae around that. People who say he's wrong are the enemies. They're against him and just try to (his words, not mine) obstruct him.

That's what a "cult of personality" is, basically. You immunise yourself to criticism by just yelling louder, which in turn makes your base yell louder.

So, they're not necessarily liars, just dishonest. They'd rather spin an alternate reality to reinforce their belief. That's nothing new, sadly, and it has been used throughout the past twenty years in politics.

And your bowing to their dishonesty and willful ignorance is a form of enabling.

Stop enabling.

[satimy]

This doesn't prove that either and ignores the fact that Trump said that Trump tower was wiretapped. It's pretty cut and dry that he was wrong and DOJ confirmed he was wrong just a couple of weeks ago.

Manafort had an office at trump tower.

[Deleted]

Yes and? He wasn't tapped, Manafort was.

If he stupidly chose a guy who was being tapped, or had recently been tapped, that's kinda on him bro.

Something something "the best people" something something.

"He guys, we didn't wiretap Trump. We just wiretap people around him that means no wiretapping on Trump at all"

[Felya]

Well there has never been anything such a Trump being wrong, because he built his personae around that. People who say he's wrong are the enemies. They're against him and just try to (his words, not mine) obstruct him.

... and you think this is normal? You think it's normal, for you to claim a side will believe a blatant lie? Claim it was semantics? How about we remove the idea of sides and just call it what it is... snake oil sales man and those that are falling for the scam.

That's what a "cult of personality" is, basically. You immunise yourself to criticism by just yelling louder, which in turn makes your base yell louder.

A cult is explicitly not a side of any argument. Why don't you continue to remove things in what you called a giant semantics argument. You removed Trump him self being wiretapped, we can remove Trump tower being taped, and we most certainly remove that nothing was found, it wasn't Obama who issued the FISA warrant on Manafort either. So... what do we have left from Trump's comment?

"Terrible! Just found out had mine before the victory. This is McArthism!"

So, they're not necessarily liars, just dishonest. They'd rather spin an alternate reality to reinforce their belief. That's nothing new, sadly, and it has been used throughout the past twenty years in politics.

Being dishonest is worse than just lying, because lying is just a tact of dishonesty. You are spinning an alternative reality to reinforce their beliefs, instead of calling it what it is... a blatant lie.

[Zandalarian Paladin]

... and you think this is normal? You think it's normal, for you to claim a side will believe a blatant lie? Claim it was semantics? How about we remove the idea of sides and just call it what it is... snake oil sales man and those that are falling for the scam.



A cult is explicitly not a side of any argument. Why don't you continue to remove things in what you called a giant semantics argument. You removed Trump him self being wiretapped, we can remove Trump tower being taped, and we most certainly remove that nothing was found, it wasn't Obama who issued the FISA warrant on Manafort either. So... what do we have left from Trump's comment?

"Terrible! Just found out had mine before the victory. This is McArthism!"



Being dishonest is worse than just lying, because lying is just a tact of dishonesty. You are spinning an alternative reality to reinforce their beliefs, instead of calling it what it is... a blatant lie.

I'm simply trying to project their logic. That's still how it's happening. Call this whatever you want, you won't make it disappear unless you face it for what it is. You can try to do it the Skroe way, with blades out and ready to bite anything in your way, but so far I have yet to see this being actually effective.

If by doing that, you call it enabling it, then surely to try to understand your point of view would be enabling in their eyes, too.

[Felya]

I'm simply trying to project their logic. That's still how it's happening. Call this whatever you want, you won't make it disappear unless you face it for what it is. You can try to do it the Skroe way, with blades out and ready to bite anything in your way, but so far I have yet to see this being actually effective.

If by doing that, you call it enabling it, then surely to try to understand your point of view would be enabling in their eyes, too.

Yes, calling it out for what it is, is enabling. Not cuddling, justifying and ultimately ignoring that you do? The reason this continues and even got to this point is people like you. Who think it's better to speak out in cuddling and excusing blatant lying, as just a normality. It isn't... it's not republicans vs democrats either... you are justifying liars, because you believe speaking out is enabling them? No, you have normalized them... you have made lying normal part of a side...

- - - Updated - - -

Manafort had an office at trump tower.

Even when he was fired? Just before the victory?

[satimy]

Yes, calling it out for what it is, is enabling. Not cuddling, justifying and ultimately ignoring that you do? The reason this continues and even got to this point is people like you. Who think it's better to speak out in cuddling and excusing blatant lying, as just a normality. It isn't... it's not republicans vs democrats either... you are justifying liars, because you believe speaking out is enabling them? No, you have normalized them... you have made lying normal part of a side...

- - - Updated - - -



Even when he was fired? Just before the victory?

The FISA warrant started before he was fired

And the DNI James clapper said there no wiretaps on Trump or anyone in his campaign. The same guy that lied to the senate about prism

[Felya]

If there is no one to tell you that you are a liar, there is never a reason to be honest. The way lying is countered, is by those who recognize it, calling it out. Why would a politician ever say the truth, if all the public did nothing when they lie? That's why Trump supporters have such a stigma... that acceptance of lying, is how you schedule a 3000 people protest and end up being outnumbered by Juggalos.

[TZucchini]

And the DNI James clapper said there no wiretaps on Trump or anyone in his campaign.

You guys are having a difficult time understanding nuance.

Clapper said there was no wiretapping directed at Trump's campaign.

He did not say "no one involved with the campaign was wiretapped."

Not that he should be answering these questions publicly anyway, during active investigation.

[Felya]

The FISA warrant started before he was fired

And the DNI James clapper said there no wiretaps on Trump or anyone in his campaign. The same guy that lied to the senate about prism

Trump said he was wiretapped "just before the victory". You are defending Trump, without bothering to even read what he said. I know... you'd have to scroll up a couple of posts, but does it really mater what Emperor of Kekistan said for you to defend him? >.<

[Noxx79]

The FISA warrant started before he was fired

And the DNI James clapper said there no wiretaps on Trump or anyone in his campaign. The same guy that lied to the senate about prism

I see you're parroting infowars like a good little sheep.

"There was no such wiretap activity mounted against the president, president-elect, candidate or campaign"

I don't see Paul Manafort in there anywhere.

Try again, sheep.

[Felya]

I see you're parroting infowars like a good little sheep.

"There was no such wiretap activity mounted against the president, president-elect, candidate or campaign"

I don't see Paul Manafort in there anywhere.

Try again, sheep.

All a tribute to Emperor of Kekistan.

- - - Updated - - -

You guys are having a difficult time understanding nuance.

Clapper said there was no wiretapping directed at Trump's campaign.

He did not say "no one involved with the campaign was wiretapped."

Not that he should be answering these questions publicly anyway, during active investigation.

I like how Trump supporters are celebrating that Trump hired someone who was watched by the government for his dealings with Russia. Could this be the reason Trump's campaign is under so much scrutiny over dealing with Russia?

Here is a question for true believers. When did Trump find out that Manafort was tapped? Before or after he hired him?

[satimy]

Trump said he was wiretapped "just before the victory". You are defending Trump, without bothering to even read what he said. I know... you'd have to scroll up a couple of posts, but does it really mater what Emperor of Kekistan said for you to defend him? >.<

You're essentially defending the Stasi, I'm merely pointing out reality.

[Draco-Onis]

You're essentially defending the Stasi, I'm merely pointing out reality.

And the reality is you don't know what the Stasi really were otherwise you wouldn't be using it so casually.