Should Linda Wenzel face execution in Iraq for joining ISIS?

[Deleted]

So if she goes back to germany she get out of jail in 15 years for being a in a terror group? I'm not necessarily supporting the death penalty, but how does one trust a known terrorist and terrorist sympathizer?

2 things

1) we got what is called "Sicherheitsverwahrung" , don't really now a fitting word in english, it basically means you stay in jail to protect the general public even though you served your sentence, that is if you pose a continuing risk to society, aside from later on adding it to a sentence (which is kinda wonky, but more or less legal (let's just say it is currently possible, but highly debated) you can add a clause in the original sentencing that it will happen, or in the case of minors will have to be evaluated later on (by professionals)

and 2 ) she is 16 now, if she would spent 15 years in prison this would mean half her lifetime could be used to reform her and show the error of her ways, that is if you believe in prison as a way to reform people and not just punish them, though if 2 isn't possible/doesn't work there's allways what i wrote in paragraph 1

[josykay]

So if she goes back to germany she get out of jail in 15 years for being a in a terror group? I'm not necessarily supporting the death penalty, but how does one trust a known terrorist and terrorist sympathizer?

Well, you kind of have to. Same as Norway has to deal with that Breivik guy after 25 years, because your justice system demands it.
In addition, Life in prison does NOT mean 15 years in Germany. It means you can apply for parole after 15 years, not that you get it. The only exception is, when the court calls for the "besondere schwere der Schuld", meaning that you can not apply for parole after 15 years. And even then there is the so called "Sicherheitsverwahrung" which is a more privileged confinement, since the person in question has served the term. Although, that essencially does not really matter if a person is sentenced to life in jail. Because if he is dangerous enough for that, he won't get parole after 15 years.

Then of course essencially none of that matters, because she is a minor, and germany does not have backdoors to charge minors as adults like the US does, so she will get the maximum sentence of 10 years, which is so far as I know, the highest possible sentence.

As for the looming death spenalty, I honestly don't believe it. After all, she "could" in theory be sentenced to deah, but then the Iraq still would have to wait 6 years, meaning it will lead to a long diplomatic struggle, and after some time in a iraqi cell, she will probably be traded back to Germany, for diplomatic privileges, support in international matters and other diplomatic stuff.

[Slant]

Countries have borders and sovereignty, you don't go to a middle east country and break the local laws, and you certainly don't join a terrorist organization that wants to over throw them.

I can only imagine how volatile something like this is in that country politicially. I bet the opposition is just begging them to let her go to the German authorities, especially knowing Germany does not have capital punishment. To a lot of people she would have just gotten away with being a terrorist no matter how long she spent in jail.

Retaliation doesn't usually bring about peace. What Iraq needs to do, domestically, is reconcile different religious groups into a coherent nation, a peaceful nation. This includes reintegrating people that have been misled by IS, or worse, coerced by force into following them. Behead the leaders as much as you like, I think there's nothing lost there. But the simple foot soldier that thought he may improve the situation for his family or prevent harm from coming to them just by saying "Oh, you need electronics? Yeah sure, I can whip up some radios..."?

As much as I understand the demonizing of IS, people need to scale down the near religious fervor with which they hate and thirst for blood. That's hardly constructive and doesn't lead anywhere.

This is regardless of this one idiot teenager, this is about Iraq in general. Iraq needs to explain to the people that blood revenge is a thing of the past. They need to finally realize that religion is not a proper form of managing people.

[Dangg]

She's a stupid teenager, if she lives to see her 25th birthday she'll probably slap herself for what a stupid retard she was at 16, as we all do.
Nobody deserves the death penalty at 16.

You can use the stupid teenager reasoning for someone smoking weed or similar, but what she did makes her a heavily damaged person way beyond repair.

[Slant]

But she didn't commit a crime in germany why should she be tried there?

She was in IS. There'll be plenty of blame to make something stick. We do have membership in a terrorist organisation as a crime here as well. That would be up to 10 years for her, depending on her involvement in associated crimes. I mean honestly, if she was just an enslaved fucktoy, that's quite different from her beheading children with a butcher's knife.

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You can use the stupid teenager reasoning for someone smoking weed or similar, but what she did makes her a heavily damaged person way beyond repair.

Nobody is beyond repair.

[Deleted]

There is currently no extradition treaty between Iraq and Germany.
Shes one of 4 German women who are imprisoned in Iraq.
Intelligence suggests she was in the Al-Khansaa Brigade.
She was part of a group of 20 female Isis supporters from Russia, Turkey, Canada, Libya and Syria who had barricaded themselves with guns and explosives in a tunnel underneath the ruins of Mosul’s old city where they were eventually captured after a firefight.
She was also believed to have been a sniper when ISIS got desperate and had to use female fighters.

[Zoranon]

There is currently no extradition treaty between Iraq and Germany.
Shes one of 4 German women who are imprisoned in Iraq.
Intelligence suggests she was in the Al-Khansaa Brigade.
She was part of a group of 20 female Isis supporters from Russia, Turkey, Canada, Libya and Syria who had barricaded themselves with guns and explosives in a tunnel underneath the ruins of Mosul’s old city where they were eventually captured after a firefight.
She was also believed to have been a sniper when ISIS got desperate and had to use female fighters.

Well if this is true, then she should probably hang, or to put it this way, if she was Iraqi she would already be dead probably.

[ranzino]

So if she goes back to germany she get out of jail in 15 years for being a in a terror group? I'm not necessarily supporting the death penalty, but how does one trust a known terrorist and terrorist sympathizer?

max sentence in juvenile cases is 10 years. and "max sentence" means just that; even if you are a teenage terrorist and mass murderer and the crime was high treason: still "only" 10 years.

and just for clarification: high treason is not on her bill for sure.

[josykay]

max sentence in juvenile cases is 10 years. and "max sentence" means just that; even if you are a teenage terrorist and mass murderer and the crime was high treason: still "only" 10 years.

and just for clarification: high treason is not on her bill for sure.

However, "Sicherheitsverwahrung" can still be used for Teenagers. And IMO opinion the state should not change his basic principles for the penal code. Ones you start making exceptions, you set the precedent for more changes, until the justice system is hollow. The juveline penal code would be nearly completely hollow, and non existent, once we had backdoors, to charge those teenagers as adults for example.

[ranzino]

However, "Sicherheitsverwahrung" can still be used for Teenagers. And IMO opinion the state should not change his basic principles for the penal code. Ones you start making exceptions, you set the precedent for more changes, until the justice system is hollow. The juveline penal code would be nearly completely hollow, and non existent, once we had backdoors, to charge those teenagers as adults for example.

"Sicherheitsverwahrung" is still rare with juvenile offenders and was never used on young terrorists. fair guess Linda will never be subject of such additional overwatch and it would have to be evaluated every year anyways.

[Deleted]

Well if this is true, then she should probably hang, or to put it this way, if she was Iraqi she would already be dead probably.

Pretty true. If she was Iraqi this wouldn't have even made the news. People giving her the benefit of the doubt since shes white and western. 'She was tricked'. The kid has fucking issues at home no doubt, was even groomed. But she joined a terror cult, in an active warzone. No doubt she is a victim of niaveity and preditory men but what about her victims?

[josykay]

"Sicherheitsverwahrung" is still rare with juvenile offenders and was never used on young terrorists. fair guess Linda will never be subject of such additional overwatch and it would have to be evaluated every year anyways.

To be fair, how many minor terrorists did we have to deal with? So far I know of a girl, attacking a cop with a knife, but that's pretty much all.
And a kid, who was to young to be held accountable, attempting to bomb a christmas fair, which didn't work.

[ranzino]

To be fair, how many minor terrorists did we have to deal with? So far I know of a girl, attacking a cop with a knife, but that's pretty much all.
And a kid, who was to young to be held accountable, attempting to bomb a christmas fair, which didn't work.

the girl (Safia) was sentenced to 6 years AFAIK and it was a attempt to kill, not success. you know the limit is 10 years for real murder and anything else, so that will happen for Linda. full limit and done and then she's out for good.

[Tijuana]

Germany is attempting to prevent the execution of a German teenager who traveled to Iraq and joined ISIS. It would seem that this is rather unfair considering that countries like Russia are more than willing to allow the courts in Iraq to pass judgement on Russians who joined up with the terrorist organization.

The most common argument against executing her that I have heard is that 'everyone does lots of stupid stuff when they are a teenager.' While this may be true, joining a terrorist organization that has murdered tens of thousands of people clearly crosses the line of what might be called a youthful indiscretion. In the meantime, countries like Sweden are apparently welcoming back ISIS fighters who escaped Iraq, regardless of what heinous crimes they might have committed, and even going so far as to give them new identities.

Is the European preference towards leniency appropriate in these cases? Or should justice be carried out by the government in the area where ISIS carried out its brutal reign for several years? If Linda Wenzel isn't executed, I can imagine her becoming a 'hero' to some people someday, to the type of people who will rewrite history to make ISIS the freedom fighter good guys who pushed back against western imperialism. We shouldn't pity or romanticize such figures.




http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wo...-a7931866.html


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017...-first-ruling/



http://www1.cbn.com/cbnnews/world/20...new-identities

So many undertones of self fulfilling prophecy and irony in this story. Amazing.

If this woman is guilty of war crimes, she should be executed, yes.

Merely being a prisoner of war is obviously not grounds for execution per the Geneva convention. However, also per the Geneva Convention, un-uniformed soldiers forfeit all rights.

Per the rules of the road we all fight wars by, she can be executed. It appears by Iraqi law, she can be executed as well. It's legal, folks.

But is it moral? Hrm, that is more difficult to say without knowing her actual deeds in more detail, and I can't be bothered to read drivel a journalist wrote. I'm just not that in to C students.

[Deleted]

Doing lots of stupid shit as a tenager involves drinking, smoking, stealing and maybe getting into fights.

Joining a terror group is not a stupid teenager move. Its a life forfeit'ing move. Not saying she should be executed but at the very lesat prison for life in iraq with no chance of ever getting out, not even once.

[Aehl]

Would you be okay with an American woman being whipped for driving a car in Saudi Arabia? Same freaking difference, folks.

Yeah I would, the same way if you committed a crime in Aust you dont use a get of of jail free card because 'Murica..you are subject to local law. If you cant handle that then never leave America.

This girl?

Should be taken out and shot for treason and terrorism.

Given the atrocities carried out in Iraq by ISIS., why should I feel any sympathy for an adult who chose to fight with the enemy? She isnt an "impressionable young girl" she isnt an angel.

She's a traitor.

She's a terrorist.

But is it moral?

Tough shit either way. There is no "moral" here, she is subject to Iraqi law. She committed a crime in their nation and will be tried under their laws. The Germans will of course try to exert diplomatic pressure, they are duty bound to try and help one of their citizens. Thats SOP.

But as far as lettIng her escape the consequences of what she has done?

LMAO NO.

Look at it this way, if she was a drug mule she'd be hanged in several nations...so why is this any different? In a way I am actually pleased..,if they do execute her then the next fool who thinks that joining up with terrorists is a good idea will think twice.

Pour encourager les autres.

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She’s admitted to killing people.

Case closed.

Hang her.

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Right, there should be consequences but you don't sentence a teenager to death

In at least a dozen countries, yes you do. Certain crimes carry a death sentence. Tough. Iraq is a sovereign nation and you are subject to their laws.

The end.

[Shalidor]

What is more cruel? Death penalty or locking someone up for 40 years?

I'd take the former any day, but that might just be me.

That's an argument about the nature of the death penalty, which is a much harder argument to make, for either side. I'm against the death penalty primarily because it's better to let ten guilty people go free than to punish one innocent, and you can't undo the death penalty if, say, something like the innocence project reveals a person sentenced to death is innocent.

Just to be clear...I don't think she should be locked up for 40 years, I think she should be locked up for life.

[Aehl]

http://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/rea...cee29a20648a89

The year two student at St Bernadette’s Primary School at Lalor Park in Sydney’s west was tragically mowed down in the August terror attack in a popular Barcelona tourist spot while on holidays with his family.

He was seven years old. Mowed down

This is what ISIS does. Tell me again why I should have one whit of sympathy for someone who has already admitted to killing Iraqis. Even IF they discount the terrorist angle, thats still murder. Either way, she should hang. Thats the law in Iraq.

[Ravenblade]

In the end it doesn't matter what random justice jockeys on the internet think would be right. No court system is built around the power of edgelords either who think death penalty is the nicest thing since sliced bread. Committing war crimes is no laughing matter in both countries' courts. The reason why I'd rather have Germany want her extradited is simply that I trust our court system to obey the rule of law and have proper criminal procedures, they have a refined law system for such cases and of course because Germany doesn't see death penalty as ultima ratio anymore. Either way if the Iraqi courts drop the possible death penalty I am sure the only terms agreed to for extradition would be her serving her terms in a German prison which wouldn't be the first time that it happens. This is why I am kind of puzzled as to why she gets so much attention: She's not the first prisoner extradited, put on trial and imprisoned here. It seems to me that people see her facing death penalty as some kind of retribution for Germany as if the entire country is waiting with bated breath - reality check: Literally noone but her family, their lawyers and diplomats, and maybe citizens of the town Pulsnitz actually care about this case. What she did has earned her, and possibly also her family, pariah status. Doesn't mean everyone is demanding to see her strung up.

[deadman1]

That's an argument about the nature of the death penalty, which is a much harder argument to make, for either side. I'm against the death penalty primarily because it's better to let ten guilty people go free than to punish one innocent, and you can't undo the death penalty if, say, something like the innocence project reveals a person sentenced to death is innocent.

Just to be clear...I don't think she should be locked up for 40 years, I think she should be locked up for life.

That being said, she is 100% guilty so there is no risk of killing an innocent person in this case.