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  1. #41
    I must admit, OP, thats a pretty good list, compared to what we usually have.
    I agree with the most part of it, except Mythic+ - simply because I really hate the dungeon grind and the fact that it kinda is zerg rush. Tactics, yeah, but zerg rush nonetheless, kill mobs asap, tanks have to dps, healers have to dps, dps dps dps. Its not what I would have chosen.

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Macilento View Post

    CONS:

    - While engaging at first, the whole Artifact talent trees and abilities feel redundant and jsut a bunch of passives you need to put hours into to be competitive (and by the way these are pretty much the same as the old talents that they removed form the game for the exact same reason)
    You ask for Classic, that's what you get. Problem is, the power of the artifact is very real. What you say there is not relevant to the game after the first few days of play, and is not a con.

    - Legendary Items are completely unbalanced and you just need luck and many many hours of play before getting what you need to be competitive.
    Legendary system is very poor and needs a rework. Agree totally.

    - Legions was atrocious for alts until patch 7.3
    7.2 is when it became very friendly for alts. 7.3 it became even MORE friendly to the point that many alts are now the same ilvl as people who have raided weekly. Prior to 7.2, it was atrocious, but has not been for half a year, and should not be listed as a con.

    - Legion forces you to play one spec and one spec only, and focus all your effort into it, and changing spec means you have to do the same proces all over again, effectivly putting yourself at an handicap in power curve, compared to others
    Maybe in 7.0, but no longer true in 7.3 to the degree that its a problem. The only thing you'd be missing is some AP. Thanks to how gearing works, there has never been a better time to have viable offspecs.

    - While the stories of the single Zones were well told, they felt separate from each other not resulting in a cohesive story telling.
    True, but is that different than previous expansions? I think no, but can't remember. Either way, had to happen with the way level scaling worked, so expect this to continue. Not a con, for me at least.

    - Many stories are (as of right now) at a dead end with no explanation, and some characters are even going agaisnt what they said: (example: Sylvanas telling she wants to avenge Vol'jin leading the horde, and she goes on doing her personall things - Anduin feeling the responsability of his father and wanting to come to help us at the broken shore, and then jsut disappear and do nothing at all).
    I think they were over zealous with the story and agree overall with you. The MAIN story though, has been superb.

    - The overall size and scale of the zones is too small, with no room to breath, lots of terrain obstacles, mountains and so on, giving the feeling of everything being cramped up in a single spot.
    This I understand, but disagree with heavily. This is how it should be if you ask me. There is now vertical terrain instead of just horizontal. To get to new locations you don't just autorun in a straight line for 4 minutes like CLassic. You have to follow winding paths and do a bit of jumping here and there.

    - While the Alliance and the Horde are fighting the legion together, there are lots of narrative ways to revamp the old Faction identity, something that as of right now is in shambles, especially for the Horde.
    Agreed. Not specific to Legion, but agreed nonetheless.

    - The amount of grinding needed to empower yourself and stay at the top of the game is insane, resulting in a power abyss between even a bad player with lot of time and a good player with less time.
    Best thing that has come from the expansion. Now you have to play to be the best. Heavily encourages actual playing, and because they made it so everything can come from everywhere, people aren't just spamming a single dungeon all day every day like in the past.

    - The patches have been dilatated over the weeks, resulting in very small new things to do in each week, giving the overall illusion that all the patches had not much to offfer.
    Illusion indeed. No true con. This is the proper way to release content. If you give it all at once people don't do half of it.

    - Patch 7.2 was dowright an atrocious questline, very far off of what thy should have done to hype up the imminent kill of Kil'Jaeden (one of the biggest character lorewise) resulting in him dieing out of nowhere like an idiot.
    How did he die out of nowhere? People spent 800+ pulls trying to kill him. The class specific stuff in 7.2 was great, but I'm not an RPer so not worried about story leading into the raid. Obviously it could have been better, but should not be something to discount the raid over.

    This is prettymuch all i can say right now. Overall very strong PROS and very strong CONS make this a very Hit and miss expansion (still better than the disgrace that was draenor). But the promise is there for the next one to be very very good.
    Problem here is, its not hit or miss. Its a very stable and successful expansion that fixed core points of issue in previous expansions. The things you and others don't like are almost always subject to opinion swings. But the things that were done right are undeniable.
    This expansion has set the stage for the future, and if it continues like this I can see a lot of whining, but the game being overall way more healthy.
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  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Feali View Post
    I just don't get the hate for dailies. It's 1-2 hours and you're done.
    I understand where you're coming from if you play 5hrs+/day. Let me be honest, I've played MMOs 12hrs+/day, but that had to stop when I got a job. Now I am lucky if I get 2-3hrs/day, to really, actually play a game (which includes dailies), after work, travel, cooking, cleaning, etc. etc.

    When I played longer, 1-2 hours didn't seem a lot. When you play 2-3 hours, though, Dailies take up 33-100% of the time you play. And you're expected to do them, and you're expected to log on every single day. Not every other day. Not a few times a week. Every single day. That's horrible, imo. I want to be able to take the odd day off entirely to see friends or whatever with having to have OCD pangs about "MAH DAILIES", which I will have if they are dailies. The WQ system manages that - sure, I'll miss some stuff, but it'll be back and reputation doesn't matter that much. The boxes, which do matter, are on 2-day timers, unless it's Argussian Reach (bastards...), I'll easily grab them - hell, I've grabbed them with under 15 minutes to go before.

    Quote Originally Posted by Feali View Post
    I don't feel like I'm missing out on something when I'm not online. And yes this is a hardcore player mentality even though I'm not even a hardcore player anymore I stopped raiding at the end of MoP. But that's not a WoW thing only for me. It's just my FOMO. It's just nice to have an end. Isle of Quel'danas daily style is my preferred method.
    I get what you're saying but you kinda can't have it both ways - you can't say the rewards are useless, and say the rewards cause you FOMO because there's no end.

    Personally I found the end, in Cata particularly, to be really awful, because it was like going off a cliff. I'd had all this shit to do for weeks, months even, then it turns out I've literally looted everything worth having from the Heroics (before they went easy! ), and I've done all the Daily grinds, and sooooooo... just raiding, and that's not enough to keep me sub'd. I want a game I can log on to and find something to do, and whole design of Legion is SUPERB for that.

    It actually reminds me of really old "make your own fun" kind of MMOs in a strange, strange way.

    EDIT - In isolation, WQs might not seem that great, but they're part of (sorry to use this word) a whole new ecosystem that Blizzard has created, that makes WoW, for me, for people I know, vastly more fun than it was. Mythic+ is part of that. Scaling is part of that. War/Titanforging is part of that.
    Last edited by Eurhetemec; 2017-09-22 at 04:35 PM.

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eurhetemec View Post
    I get what you're saying but you kinda can't have it both ways - you can't say the rewards are useless, and say the rewards cause you FOMO because there's no end.
    The rewards don't cause FOMO my personality causes FOMO.

    I wouldn't hate that much on WQ if they were interesting at all. But they are just "kill this rare" or "repeat this quest you did while leveling". I know dailies were the same in that aspect but that's exactly my point.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Eurhetemec View Post
    EDIT - In isolation, WQs might not seem that great, but they're part of (sorry to use this word) a whole new ecosystem that Blizzard has created, that makes WoW, for me, for people I know, vastly more fun than it was. Mythic+ is part of that. Scaling is part of that. War/Titanforging is part of that.
    You enjoy endless grinds (for the lack of a better word). I don't. I like to be done at some point for the week and focus on other stuff. I'm very lucky that my job let's me choose how I manage my time.

    - - - Updated - - -

    You could argue the MMO genre is not for me anymore.

  5. #45
    Pretty reasonable list in the OP, although this part: "- Legions was atrocious for alts until patch 7.3" seems completely wrong to me. 7.2.5 was the best time for alts in Legion, 7.3 made it much worse again with Netherlight Crucible requiring a stupid amount of traits as well as Argus adding a ton of content you have to redo on every alt. Meanwhile in 7.2.5 you could gear up quickly and get to AP "cap" quickly, meaning the only thing really hurting alts was the lack of legendaries. Getting alts to a decent gear ilevel was never a problem in Legion, to the point where alts doing heroic would be nearly equally geared to mythic raiding characters.
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  6. #46
    My own .02

    Pros:


    Zone level scaling, allowing players to start wherever they like
    Legendaries in general (though some could have been a bit more situational)
    Artifact weapon being an expansion-long upgrade event
    Suramar quest chain and zone in its entirety
    World quest variety
    Dungeon quality. With the exception of VotW, which is a giant pile of shit, and the needless rehash of VH, these are pretty solid dungeons.
    Raids. Some of the bosses were throwaways, but the raids so far have been pretty good
    End game level scaling. While this didn't stay in effect for that long, this was good while it lasted. The screeching playerbase ensured a short lifespan on this one.
    Class halls. Lots of flavor quests here, and good tie-in with artifacts
    Secrets: There was some cool unadvertised stuff to do in this expansion that was very well hidden (mounts etc). Stuff like this is always great to see in the game

    Cons:

    Followers. A leftover from WoD, because gosh-darn it, that expansion couldn't have been all bad, could it? Non-interactive gameplay isn't good in an MMO, and that's exactly what these mission tables gave. If followers make a comeback (and I hope they don't), they need to truly be interactive followers, and be given scenarios like the Withered army training, where players can directly help level up said follower team, etc. I'd much rather just see them go away though.
    Overall class design Pruning continued where it left off from the past 2 expansions or so, and overall classes became more uninteresting than ever, or in some cases so RNG / gimmicky that they weren't even worth playing. If I ever decide to simply avoid an expansion completely, it will be because this trend continued on its current course. This is probably my biggest complaint about the expansion.
    Xmog restrictions on weapons: specifically, ele being forced into using shitty fist weapons. A minor point, but still.
    Been there, done that: This is the 3rd expansion that was Legion focused for the most part. That it's back to back with WoD doesn't help the general feeling of sameness certainly. While hellspawn / demons in general always make for entertaining gameplay across multiple genres, as a player, I'm certainly ready for something else.
    Broken Shore: There's stuff to do, but nothing really unique going on here. While one may argue that Argus can be considered a larger, prettier version of the same thing, BS seems like a missed opportunity, especially when compared to IoT, for example.
    Powah: Player power levels and abilities have become ridiculous, with players wielding and improving nearly god-like weapons etc. This has nothing to do with raw numbers (which will also probably need another squish in the near future), but just the general semi-superhero status of a player rather than the skilled footsoldier angle.

    Summary: I'd give this expansion a solid B rating, very close behind Wrath, and light years better than WoD. In some ways the devs are on the right track, with increased activities, more varied approaches to competently gearing up, and more of a 'play the way you want' sort of vibe to the game. Storytelling mechanisms continue to be very good, and continue improving over the years (even if a player may not like the story that's being told)

    The game continues to have the age-old issue that gameplay starts to feel terribly compartmentalized once you get deeper into end game. Output levels go up, risk (as if there were any in the first place) goes down, and activities outside of high level mythics and raiding quickly turn into tedium because of it. There are things that could be done to address this a bit, we'll have to see if any of it ever gets implemented (or if it's even considered a problem at all).

    Burnout is also fairly present, and I can completely see why folks who can't stick to one or two classes might feel overwhelmed in this expansion. Personally I played since the release of Legion, played a ton for quite a few months (focusing on just 2 characters), and started to see my playtime dropping quickly once ToS was released. I haven't been able to find motivation to play on that same frequency since then, and will probably just let my sub expire when it's up in 3 months. Still, a fun expansion in my eyes overall.

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by NoobistTV-Metro View Post
    - Legions was atrocious for alts until patch 7.3
    7.2 is when it became very friendly for alts. 7.3 it became even MORE friendly to the point that many alts are now the same ilvl as people who have raided weekly. Prior to 7.2, it was atrocious, but has not been for half a year, and should not be listed as a con.

    - Legion forces you to play one spec and one spec only, and focus all your effort into it, and changing spec means you have to do the same proces all over again, effectivly putting yourself at an handicap in power curve, compared to others
    Maybe in 7.0, but no longer true in 7.3 to the degree that its a problem. The only thing you'd be missing is some AP. Thanks to how gearing works, there has never been a better time to have viable offspecs.

    - The amount of grinding needed to empower yourself and stay at the top of the game is insane, resulting in a power abyss between even a bad player with lot of time and a good player with less time.
    Best thing that has come from the expansion. Now you have to play to be the best. Heavily encourages actual playing, and because they made it so everything can come from everywhere, people aren't just spamming a single dungeon all day every day like in the past.

    - The patches have been dilatated over the weeks, resulting in very small new things to do in each week, giving the overall illusion that all the patches had not much to offfer.
    Illusion indeed. No true con. This is the proper way to release content. If you give it all at once people don't do half of it.
    Don't really agree on the alt part, and it definitely should be listed as a con for Legion, even if it has gotten better.
    Legion is definitely not the most offspec friendly expansion, thanks to AP and legendaries.
    Legion heavily encourages running content you've outgrown a long time ago, which is bad design in my opinion. Content should become obsolete eventually, and having old raid world tours be better at getting legendaries than doing the hardest content is absurd.
    Don't agree at all on the patch thing. I want a big patch every 6 months or so with everything available when it hits, giving me plenty of time to experience all the parts of it that I'm interested in. Getting drip-fed tiny parts at a time is just annoying.
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  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Feali View Post
    The rewards don't cause FOMO my personality causes FOMO.

    I wouldn't hate that much on WQ if they were interesting at all. But they are just "kill this rare" or "repeat this quest you did while leveling". I know dailies were the same in that aspect but that's exactly my point.
    I feel like they're a lot less bad for that because there are so many more, and so many are skippable, and the rewards change.

    Quote Originally Posted by Feali View Post
    You enjoy endless grinds (for the lack of a better word). I don't. I like to be done at some point for the week and focus on other stuff. I'm very lucky that my job let's me choose how I manage my time.

    You could argue the MMO genre is not for me anymore.
    Or ever... I mean, EQ, DAoC, Vanilla WoW, TBC, they were always "endless grinds" in the sense you're using the term. Only in Cata/MoP was there this very strict Daily ultra-facegrind.

    Re: "I like to be done at some point for the week and focus on other stuff" - the trouble is Dailies Cata/MoP-style don't allow that. They want you on every day, for 1-2 hours, then BOOM DONE, and you're out, you drop from 7-14 hours of content you "need" to do every week to 0. Whereas with WQs, you can just "Pfffft, done, not logging in today".

    I think the biggest issue in terms of forcing people to log in is actually the resources needed for the Class Hall - I think they need to dump that idea for Next Expansion, it's not fun or interesting to not be able to send people on missions because you need to go out and grind resources. If you're going to make us get resources, maybe make the challenge resource management, not "get back online and get some resources!".

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eurhetemec View Post
    I think the biggest issue in terms of forcing people to log in is actually the resources needed for the Class Hall - I think they need to dump that idea for Next Expansion, it's not fun or interesting to not be able to send people on missions because you need to go out and grind resources. If you're going to make us get resources, maybe make the challenge resource management, not "get back online and get some resources!".
    They need to dump everything in regards to garrisons/order halls/player ships/housing/you name it.

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by det View Post
    Yeah, Blizzard IMHO tweaked the systems nicely. By offering a ton of WQs, and Emissaries, you can sort of pick and chose. And class halls are just so great with the class stories and quests and mounts. And because the follower quests usually take a much longer time than Garrison quests, you don't feel compelled to be online 24/7 and check them out.

    At the moment I am very interested to see where Artifacts and legendaries go. I cannot see them being abandoned at all.
    They're bound to replace the systems, aren't they? I mean, Artifacts will be replaced by some sort of continuous-power-gain mechanic, whether it's Artifact Armour, some sort of Path of the Titans, or whatever. I expect objects myself because then you can see your character grow visually.

    Legendaries, likewise seem unlikely to go. If anything, I think they may make them less RNG-y to get.

    My biggest worry with the next expansion is actually lore. I mean, strange to say it, right, but Legion had pretty great lore, and because of the class quests, and the history behind the artifacts and so on, it all felt somewhat personalized and fun. Going back to the Shaman class hall is really, really different to the Paladin one.

    I'm worried that if they just give us each some super-individual boat or airship or whatever, and some generic no-history armour or generic all-characters-get-it Path of the Titans, they're going to lose that. I really hope they don't. I hope they keep class-specific stuff going on.

    Quote Originally Posted by Feali View Post
    They need to dump everything in regards to garrisons/order halls/player ships/housing/you name it.
    I think people REALLY enjoyed the story stuff attached to that, and enjoyed having a "home base" that wasn't as isolated/lonely as garrisons (the loneliest place in WoW), so I don't think that'd be a smart move.

    But totally reworking those systems, and as someone suggested up thread, making followers more interactive, more Withered Army Training, less WoD? Yeah, I think that'd work.
    Last edited by Eurhetemec; 2017-09-22 at 05:03 PM.

  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eurhetemec View Post
    Or ever... I mean, EQ, DAoC, Vanilla WoW, TBC, they were always "endless grinds" in the sense you're using the term. Only in Cata/MoP was there this very strict Daily ultra-facegrind.
    Eh.. maybe... I actually LOVED Cata. And MoP is my favorite expansion soo...
    Last edited by Feali; 2017-09-22 at 05:05 PM.

  12. #52
    Deleted
    Pros:
    Mythic+
    WQ
    and nearly everything else.

    I for one like the legendaries. BUT. I hate the RNG about it.
    I wonder how it turned out if legendaries dropped as a turn-in item and you could then choose your legendary. No more RNG with such a huge impact as it has had this XP.
    Also AP should be char specific and not spec specific - I always play all specs my class has to offer, so having to focus on one, makes you feel hindered when playing the other 2 (3) specs.

  13. #53
    I have no major gripes. Overall a wonderfully executed expansion with fantastic zones, beautiful visuals and inspiring music, mostly captivating lore and many great and engaging systems like world quests, artifacts and just lots of interesting stuff to do overall.

  14. #54
    Deleted
    I can say my biggest 3 cons of this expansion:

    1. Legendaries - not much to say here... EVERYONE hates that system...
    2. Warforging/Titanforging - absolute atrocity of a system... this devaluates hard content greatly when you can loot better item at lower difficulty
    3. Too much god damn RNG - From Legendaries and WF/TF up to class design like pre 7.3 Arms warrior or Outlaw rogue when your dps rely on how the dice rolls (all the puns intended)



    And a biggest pro was probably the expansion launch...

    I didn't expected much after the disaster with WoD and I was really REALLY surprised how smooth it was

  15. #55
    I don't get all the love for world quests, they just seem more like a cheap version of dailies that weirdly enough pop out of no where (if your going a bit realistic you need to ask yourself how all those random voices are narrating these objectives to you...). At least dailies felt a lot more RPG'ish, go to a town and help out some dudes where your eventually done with them. World quests may be much less of a hassle but at the same time its making this game feel stale for me. I don't remember having much fun doing world quests other than the occasionaly Kirin Tor WQ.

    I really don't see the current situation with PvP as a pro either, its actually in its worst state yet. And the quality of the story is completely subjective, I think its ''okay'' at best but there's no expansion yet that outdid WotLK's story. Its one of the better story expansions at least, only behind WotLK and MoP imo.

  16. #56
    I mainly like the World Quest system because I get to choose what quest I want to complete. It's not me heading to the same hub every day in Pandaria, dropping bombs on bugs for 10 minutes then collecting my reward. It allows me to spend my time wisely and ignore any quests that I don't think are worth my time, or don't provide a beneficial reward.

    However, I do miss the story component that daily hubs had in Pandaria, like the Klaxxi stuff. Was really cool having that experience lead up to Heart of Fear and so on.

    Hopefully they can find a way to add more story to world quests in the future if they decide to keep the design, but I don't think it would be possible due to how random the WQ's spawn at the moment.

  17. #57
    My pros and cons, things I'll add to the OP's list/changes

    Pro
    -environment art, art team has outdone themselves yet again, love the new caves
    -lots of things to discover

    Con
    -very little new music added, new music is one of the things I look forward most in each xpac, the Black Temple theme being repeated everywhere really annoys the hell out of me; same with Val'shara: why is there music from Teldrassil playing in Val'shara? Couldn't they afford to have new music composed for this xpac? Nightsong from Cataclysm playing during Ysera cinematic, Nordrassil playing during Thalryssa introductory cinematic, wth has Nordrassil got to do with the Nightborne? No tavern music in Legion Dalaran taverns, big spaces like the Withered Training scenario don't have ambient music at all, really? Do devs even play this game with the ingame sound/music on?
    -Some new character models like Nelfs haven't been fixed
    -I don't like the new casting animations
    -itemization confusion: since now it is entirely possible for a secondary stat to outweigh a primary stat, I feel managing your equipment has become more difficult than ever
    -not a fan of jewelry without primary stats
    -not a fan of overpowered level 101 items. Speaking of trivializing content and such. There should be no legos for toons below maxlevel.
    -not a fan of the removal of buffs for healing classes
    Last edited by Eggroll; 2017-09-22 at 05:58 PM.

  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by Feali View Post
    Relevant rewards? You can't be serious. 90% of them are AP, Order Resources and Gold. The rest is useless gear. And if you want to keep up on reputation you HAVE to do all the WQ. There's no choice.
    AP, OR, and gold are always relevant. Or do you want to stop progressing your artifact, stop being able to send champions out on missions and recruit troops, and go broke? If you're an enchanter you get mats, if you're not there's always a chance of an upgrade. And Blizz isn't putting a gun to your head saying you have to do this.

  19. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by cparle87 View Post
    AP, OR, and gold are always relevant. Or do you want to stop progressing your artifact, stop being able to send champions out on missions and recruit troops, and go broke? If you're an enchanter you get mats, if you're not there's always a chance of an upgrade. And Blizz isn't putting a gun to your head saying you have to do this.
    Meh.. relevant? Okay. Interesting? No fucking way.

  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by NoobistTV-Metro View Post
    While the stories of the single Zones were well told, they felt separate from each other not resulting in a cohesive story telling.
    True, but is that different than previous expansions? I think no, but can't remember. Either way, had to happen with the way level scaling worked, so expect this to continue. Not a con, for me at least.
    They actually seemed pretty well connected to me. You obviously had to do Azsuna before you did Suramar, so you were introduced with the concept of withering and them being insane mana suckers before you learned in Suramar how they came to be. RIP Runas. If you did Stormheim before Highmountain you wouldn't know who those Bloodtotem were who were fighting to get the shield, but if you did the reverse you wouldn't know why there were vrykul attacking the tauren border. There were lots of little things that made the experience and how the story unfolded a bit differently depending on the order you chose to do the zones.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Baenesur View Post
    Pros:
    Mythic+
    WQ
    and nearly everything else.

    I for one like the legendaries. BUT. I hate the RNG about it.
    I wonder how it turned out if legendaries dropped as a turn-in item and you could then choose your legendary. No more RNG with such a huge impact as it has had this XP.
    Also AP should be char specific and not spec specific - I always play all specs my class has to offer, so having to focus on one, makes you feel hindered when playing the other 2 (3) specs.
    How do you figure like that? World drop or just above that level drop with the bad luck protection. Get it, take it to a vendor, pick your leggo?

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