Does WoW need to return to swords and sorcery?

[Demithio]

I am in agreement with the OP. WoW became popular in the first place not because we toppled gods or travelled through space and time. It got popular because it was an amazing feeling to be able to run around in a massive, seamless fantasy world. You would feel so immersed by the forests, deserts, caves, lakes, mountains, etc., that it was a very captivating experience. The fact that the world had a thriving community also helped loads.

Right now, I feel WoW is sustained expansion-to-expansion by trying to woo us with shiny things.

Look, you're the COMMANDER! Look again, you're a CLASS LEADER! But wait, now you're the DEFENDER OF THE WORLD. WITH ILLIDAN. AND TURALYON. AND FUCKING POWERFUL WEAPONS PEOPLE IN VANILLA ONLY DREAMT ABOUT.

People are likely also sticking around because by now, a combination of time passing, friendships taking root, collections getting bigger, lore reaching its climax, and life outside of WoW getting more stressful to handle, all contribute to making it difficult for old players to let go.

So now, people are under the misconception that WoW remains healthy and popular as ever, growing even. But I think that's a mistaken belief. I think WoW would be a lot more popular if it had stuck to the wizards and dragons concept. Outland was about as far towards the outlandish as it should have gotten. It toyed around the idea back then. At this point, we're basically in StarCraft.

Couldn't agree more. Sadly, they went way overboard with it. They obviously dont know the words 'moderation' or 'sparingly' at Blizzard.

[Eurhetemec]

I am in agreement with the OP. WoW became popular in the first place not because we toppled gods or travelled through space and time. It got popular because it was an amazing feeling to be able to run around in a massive, seamless fantasy world. You would feel so immersed by the forests, deserts, caves, lakes, mountains, etc., that it was a very captivating experience. The fact that the world had a thriving community also helped loads.

Right now, I feel WoW is sustained expansion-to-expansion by trying to woo us with shiny things.

Look, you're the COMMANDER! Look again, you're a CLASS LEADER! But wait, now you're the DEFENDER OF THE WORLD. WITH ILLIDAN. AND TURALYON. AND FUCKING POWERFUL WEAPONS PEOPLE IN VANILLA ONLY DREAMT ABOUT.

People are likely also sticking around because by now, a combination of time passing, friendships taking root, collections getting bigger, lore reaching its climax, and life outside of WoW getting more stressful to handle, all contribute to making it difficult for old players to let go.

So now, people are under the misconception that WoW remains healthy and popular as ever, growing even. But I think that's a mistaken belief. I think WoW would be a lot more popular if it had stuck to the wizards and dragons concept. Outland was about as far towards the outlandish as it should have gotten. It toyed around the idea back then. At this point, we're basically in StarCraft.

I don't really agree that it would be "a lot more popular".

I mean, it's much more popular than the games which are more "wizards and dragons", which is to say, virtually all other MMORPGs. I don't think theme matters as much as you think.

Re: immersion, what you're describing is more "first MMO syndrome" than anything unique to WoW. Certainly that level of immersion died with flying. I know people don't like to hear that, but it did. It might have survived for a while, but it didn't stay alive, and I don't think it can with flying and instances and so on and so forth.

Yet if WoW didn't have QoL/convenience features, another game that did would have eaten its lunch sooner or later. Only because WoW has continually got ahead of other games on this was it stayed so successful. A major problem for SWTOR was it's lack of RDF. Sure, people hate RDF, but when they got to SWTOR, and found it didn't have one, and people had to make groups "the old way" for everything, people bounced off. Same for so many other less-immersive features.

I really hate saying this, because I'd love to see the immersive MMO come back, but it's not going to until immersion can get a whole lot more immersive and gameplay can get a lot more simple and accessible.

[Sabever]

No, we're still adventurers, still heroes. We still partake in menial tasks along with the larger ones.

However, WoW always had steampunk-esque elements with bombs and machinery. It was never the case that WoW was just basic swords and magic.

You obviously never followed WoW history then. Up until the end of WC3 the frozen throne, the game was still almost exclusively swords and wizards. WoW really followed WC3 off the tails of LOTR and WoW was based off of Warhammer fantasy which Blizzard was originally making the game for. Vanilla WoW almost did not even have guns. There were very limited engineering and really only in gnomeran and goblin areas. In TBC it was still largly swords and wizards but it did start to take a turn with the floating instances. WOTLK returned it to swords and wizards with the exception of Ulduar. Then the cataclysm happened. Blizzard overreacted, ruined the world. Everyone had cars and motorcycles. It was stupid. The whole whole aesthetic of the game since WOTLK has been such a turn off.

[LanToaster]

First of all, I agree that warcraft never had the best storytelling or worldbuilding

This is basically the thing that is my main problem.

They added quite a bit interesting lore around stuff. (If you like it. Thats a subjective matter though)
The RTS games had a very basic story. (Not much Background lore)
With WoW they added so much background lore, and I would love it if it would actually be properly included in the game.

Odyn is a good Example, the Story behind him and Helya is (even though its not something new) interesting, and would´ve been interesting if you would actually explore that.

Of course the first game was as you said a game where they just had to make orcs fight humans. But there are some interesting things that they did like the orcs coming from another world through a portal with the help of a corrupted mage, and the tone of the setting was very consistent and engaging. Was it derivative? Sure, but it was still enjoyable and immersive.

Thats subjective, I still find the lore around everything enjoyable and immersive. I enjoy listening to Nobbel87 on YouTube. Dunno where exactly he gets all his information. But the Stories of WarCraft he tells are really enjoyable. (In my Opinion)

As for whether or not is canon, do any of the same people develop the story still? I doubt it. Canon is a very technical term, and yes, technically it is canon, something i never disputed in the first place, all I said was that the writing was horrible (as it is often in fanfiction) and extremely inconsistent with the original themes and material (as it is also often in fanfiction)

I agree that the Retcons going around are a bit stupid. But if you develop a story over such a long time, and build a universe around it. Its bound to get into corners that need to be straighened out.

I like the Idea behind the Titans, and the reason they gave them to do what they did. I also like that they gave Sargeras a reason to be actually the asshole he is. Instead of just beeing "Corrupted by the Evil hes fighting".

And why Azeroth is so damn important for the Legion.



As for the SpaceShips, I dont have much reason to hate them. I think its a natural process to actually use the power/energy you have.

An Example: You have the Power to infuse a stick with magic so it can shoot Magic Missles (Wands), why shouldn´t it be possible for a race that lives for thousands of years (Or even Immortal ones like the Naaru) to increase the scope of that. (Giant Laser Guns).

Or if you have magical discs you can ride around. (First seen in WotLK in the Malygos fight I think) Why shouldn´t people be able to supersize this to Space Ships.

Mages/Warlocks can create Portals to other worlds, why cant the same principle be used to have these DimensionsShips the Legion uses.+

The only thing thats annoying/weird is, that the technological advancement of the other species doesnt matter at all.

[TheFirstOnes]

Hey man, I like fighting a Universal destroying God at the Pantheon's Seat.

...Makes me feel less weak.

[Soon-TM]

Draenei were fine when they were just exiles who had had to leave most of their technology behind, so they were forced to fight with swords and basic spells. They are not fine as Protoss 2.0

The Burning Legion was fine when it was a host of powerful demons who actually had to be summoned via dedicated sorcerers and warlocks. They are not fine as a the Star Wars' Empire with a pat of lime green paint.

The Old Gods were fine as those malicious, secretive masterminds who were fairly powerless on their own, but were masters at manipulating the minds of other, especially mortal ones. They won't be fine as yolo-tentacles-in-yer-face, if C'thun and Yogg-Saron have been.

All imo, of course.

[Al Gorefiend]

We had airships, submarines, bolt action rifles and explosives in Warcraft 2...

But yeah if you mean simple Dungeons & Dragons RPG dungeon stories I agree. Hear the rumor in the tavern. Go delve into the dungeon. Slay the evil witch. Collect the gold. That's good fantasy to me, I could dig going back to those level 1-60 style quests

[Pony Soldier]

Theres a different between having it be a distant part of the lore, the "what if" factor that WoW used to have, and having it fully in your face. Its the same effect as the Pandaren, I read about them long ago during late vanilla / early TBC, and thought it was an interesting novelty, something to think about as some distant part of the lore. I never thought they would make an entire expansion out of it, which in actual practice turned out to be ridiculous and silly according to many opinions.

Well, I don't know. For me the "what if" factor went out the window once the draenei crash landed in their crystal spaceship on Azuremyst Isle. The fact that they were flying in that thing pretty much solidified the fact that there were spaceships in the lore now. For me it became less about "what if" and more of "when". Maybe we didn't see them then because the Legion thought they'd be able to handle us without them. After being defeated they probably thought "next time we'll use our full force against them" later resulting in the introduction of their spaceships raining hell down on us from above and on ground.

I don't know it doesn't bother me. I actually really like the whole spaceship thing. When I first saw them in the pre-expansion invasion event I thought it was one of the coolest things Blizzard has done in a long time. I never saw WoW as a typical sword and magic fantasy. As soon as I stepped through the Dark Portal for the first time in TBC I knew WoW was something special and unique. I knew this wasn't just any typical fantasy game. So seeing these demon spaceships is not surprising or new to me. I always figured it'd happen someday.

[Deleted]

For my personal taste, yes. Absolutely.

I LOVED the general art style and atmosphere of Vanilla WoW and WOTLK. I disliked the style of all other expansions to various degrees though, mostly because of the very issue the OP described.

I'm just quite a fan of the classic medieval-inspired fantasy setting. Sure, some mentioned even vanilla had stuff such as the deeprun tram, guns and all. But they sort of fit into the world, they were often rare sights that were well integrated into the environments. And even those were somewhat simplistic - sure you had guns, but they often looked as primitve as it gets, made out of basic materials.
In more recent addons, its often feels exactly the other way around - highly abstract, futuristic environments with the occasionnal medieval element mixed in.

I'd definitely like to return to a more simple, classic art style. Create believable environments again; throw away any shades of pink from your color palette while doing so. And trash the particle effects too. A simple forest will be so much better than some pink rocky environment with floating mountains and laserbeams.
As for enemies, not everything must be 50 ft tall rocket shooting doomsbringers. A simple human corrupting parts of society will do. Why not have some sort of criminal clan who undermine a faction in order to lead horde/alliance back to war for their own profit, or whatever else. Much more interesting than TROGDOR THE DESTRUCTOR, the one to destroy all of mankind. Again. For real. Until the next raid tier.

[huth]

Dunno....Elemental Lords, Dragons...Old gods...A powerful Lich...it was all in Vanilla WoW. What exactly are you talking about?

They want to go back to that mythical time their memory constructed for them but that didn't actually ever happen. And somehow mistake it not being that as meaning WoW isn't Fantasy anymore.

[Deianeira]

They could scale back on that part, for sure.

We can be Heroes without being "THE hero", leave that to the main lore characters. We could have had Order Halls without being the Order Leader, it wouldn't have taken anything away.

Well sure we could have been that, but then we probably would not have had the artifacts since why would any of "the real heroes" let a simple Soldier wield the weapons of legends?

[Riistov]

I feel like they've struck a pretty good balance. Spectacle creep is a danger in any long running game, but I feel like the dev team has managed it well.

[Deleted]

I feel like they've struck a pretty good balance. Spectacle creep is a danger in any long running game, but I feel like the dev team has managed it well.

literally how could it get worse?

WoW is THE example of a franchise getting destroyed by spectacle creep

[Riistov]

We had airships, submarines, bolt action rifles and explosives in Warcraft 2...

I think a lot of people are overlooking that. Most of these items/concepts have always been in the game lore.

[deviantcultist]

My question is, why do some people want forced simplicity? Warcraft was always bound to go to really far into the otherworldly/sci-fi domain. Just because WC1 was extremely boring and all about Humans vs Orcs, it does not mean we have to kickstart WoW back into unimaginative DnD or Lord of the Rings fantasy.

I clearly mentioned "unimaginative DnD" cause I've done campaigns that are rather intriguing and deep. That is opposed to the generic DnD where you are a freaking nobody adventurer who goes into taverns to get quests to kill cartoon villains and get gold.

[Exeris]

Was a little weird fighting alongside Protoss(army of the light).

[huth]

Was a little weird fighting alongside Protoss(army of the light).

If you go beyond superficial similarities, i don't find them even remotely comparable. Particularly motivations and behaviour are vastly different

[Echocho]

Dunno....Elemental Lords, Dragons...Old gods...A powerful Lich...it was all in Vanilla WoW. What exactly are you talking about?

Only 1% of the playerbase did that, it's fine.

[Deleted]

My question is, why do some people want forced simplicity? Warcraft was always bound to go to really far into the otherworldly/sci-fi domain. Just because WC1 was extremely boring and all about Humans vs Orcs, it does not mean we have to kickstart WoW back into unimaginative DnD or Lord of the Rings fantasy.

I clearly mentioned "unimaginative DnD" cause I've done campaigns that are rather intriguing and deep. That is opposed to the generic DnD where you are a freaking nobody adventurer who goes into taverns to get quests to kill cartoon villains and get gold.

You're a toddler, we get it, why do you have to beat us over the head with it?

[cparle87]

Just go back to the whole sword and sorcery, to WoW's D&D roots, don't go full sci-fi, It's like fine, Draenei had help to travel the universe and got some extra tech, whatever. But now they apparently got freakin shield generators, like the Vindicaar has. If Draenei had that all along, where was that during the 4th War with Garrosh? Were they shy to show It off?

If I was Horde, and I am. I'd go to Exodar and plunder that damn city for all of It's advanced technology If I knew they had that stuff.

Dude, did you look at Shattrath City in Draenor? They lost most of the city in a sneak attack, reinforced one area, and were blasting cannon fire out of the air with freaking lazer firing crystals. Aunchindoun had a force field around the entire thing, as did Shattrath's major dome we never got to see the interior of, sadly.

Our draenei lost all of that and fled on Tempest Keep with little more than the shirts on their backs. You heard the artificers. Every resource, every spare moment, went into this one, single, ship. I'd be disappointed if it didn't have shields.