Speculation - Silithus: The Wound

[Qualia]

Have you like, ever played D&D before? Narrating things to the perspective of the character is part and parcel of good DM'ing.

You are misunderstanding things. The Dungeon Master narrates and describes what the characters can feel, hear, see, etc. or act out the reactions of the environments or other characters. However, they do NOT narrate FROM a character's perspective. Those are different thing. For example, "Surrounded by darkness, you cannot see anything but you can hear something approaching" is different from "I cannot see anything, but I can hear something approaching". The first would be what a Dungeon Master, who usually play a role similar to the director / omniscient narrator, would state, while the later is what a character's perspective would be. The role of a DM and a player is supposed to be separated - even if the DM want to play a character and influence the story that way.

In this case, if we are to apply D&D rule since you mentioned it, the "you can feel the legacy of C'Thun's evil around you" would be the DM's description of what you feel. The rest would be description of the environment and the NPC. All of those are done from an (kind of) omnipresent narrator's perspective, not the player perspective.

I guess we will never really know since when Me'dan left at the end of the comics to "journey across the universe" with Atiesh in hand, the same Atiesh that Khadgar wields?. Let's not forget that he apparently reforged Atiesh himself after recovering the base from C'thuns corpse, yet... the argent crusade also canonically prevented Kel'Thuzad from restoring the staff and restored it themselves during the first siege of Naxxramas?

Khadgar hasn't been always using Atiesh. He only started wielding it during Legion (WoD was supposed to be a look-alike according to UVG), it isn't too far-fetched for Med'an to have passed it to Khadgar offscreen. They have interacted before, after all. Moreover, the original restoration of A'tiesh was only done in-game during Vanilla - which might not even be canon anymore. Now, canonically, the first siege of Naxxramas was done by Darion (see "The Ashbringer" or in-game Ashbringer artifact quest text), and I'm pretty sure I never saw any Darion in the raid during Vanilla. This isn't the first time that the raids, lore-wise, aren't the same as the in-game raid we play. Blizzard said it: it's a matter of lore and gameplay segregation.

Again, regardless how you feel about the comic or if you think it's confusing, when Blizzard says it's canon, then it's canon and we can use it as a valid source. When they say "No, those comic books aren't canon any longer", then we can start arguing whether it's a valid source or not. As of now, it is. Except Med'an being the Guardian, the rest of the comics remain canon - for example, if you really want a speculation of how that could happen, it's possible that Med'an took the power, but never accepted the title Guardian, and the others agreed to go with it. There, done, the entire comic story remains the same.
(I'm not saying that was Blizzard's canon explanation. As of now, I'm not too sure what's their explanation either. However, that doesn't change the fact that everything in the comics are still canon except Med'an being the Guardian. Blizzard don't have to explain something they said / wrote - heck, they don't even have to make sure that "something" makes sense - for it to be canon)

[Daevelian]

You are misunderstanding things. The Dungeon Master narrates and describes what the characters can feel, hear, see, etc. or act out the reactions of the environments or other characters. However, they do NOT narrate FROM a character's perspective. Those are different thing. For example, "Surrounded by darkness, you cannot see anything but you can hear something approaching" is different from "I cannot see anything, but I can hear something approaching". The first would be what a Dungeon Master, who usually play a role similar to the director / omniscient narrator, would state, while the later is what a character's perspective would be. The role of a DM and a player is supposed to be separated - even if the DM want to play a character and influence the story that way.

In this case, if we are to apply D&D rule since you mentioned it, the "you can feel the legacy of C'Thun's evil around you" would be the DM's description of what you feel. The rest would be description of the environment and the NPC. All of those are done from an (kind of) omnipresent narrator's perspective, not the player perspective.

Whelp, now you're just being selective in your interpretations. If you cant see it going both ways, well, that's just sad on your part.

As for your second bit, you've started making assumptions again...

Am in a rush again, so i'll just say that this entire thing seems to boil down to interpretation of certain sources, depending on your interpretation C'thun and Yogg'saron could be either alive, dormant or dead, which i guess makes them Schrodingers Old Gods. But hey, just like we have "sources" saying that C'thun is dead, we have other sources saying Yoggy is alive and well.

Remember "Perhaps to actually destroy something that lives outside of time and space, life and death, you would have to erase it from existence completely". (An ingame quote refering to the old gods)

Edit: have a bonus!

"It was not necessarily anything related to their deaths which caused the Cataclysm. Consequences of killing an Old God were explored with the sha, and then expanded upon in Chronicle, which states that the only reason killing the Old Gods would destroy Azeroth is because they had embedded themselves too deep in the planet's crust for the Pantheon to tear them out without causing permanent damage to the world-soul. It was also later confirmed that it was Deathwing shattering the World Pillar that caused the Shattering."

[Qualia]

Am in a rush again, so i'll just say that this entire thing seems to boil down to interpretation of certain sources, depending on your interpretation C'thun and Yogg'saron could be either alive, dormant or dead, which i guess makes them Schrodingers Old Gods. But hey, just like we have "sources" saying that C'thun is dead, we have other sources saying Yoggy is alive and well.

Such as? I'm very open to it - show me any canonical source stating clearly that Yogg is alive - be it from a novel, a comic, a quest, or an Blizzard developer. I've seen people claiming that C'Thun and Yogg are alive, but I've never seen anyone able to provide a quote that explicitly stating so. 99.99% people just give vague NPC's speech (which aren't that reliable to begin with) - in particular that infamous line "They do not die, they do not live, they are outside of the circle" from WoTLK and then proceed to speculate those speeches.

That's the thing. What we know aren't even something vague. Blizzard answered why haven't seen anything happening with two down with Cataclysm. Quest told us from the omniscient narrator that C'Thun is dead. Comics told us the same thing. On the other hand, "certain sources" claiming otherwise are just either one that we shouldn't pay any heed to, or non-official speculations from NPC's vague claims. The two arguments might have been equal during... Vanilla, but they aren't on the same level to make the matter confusing anymore with so many information from Blizzard.
Until Blizzard change their mind and give us a newer quote in the line of "Well, they are actually alive" (which will swap the score around, override other canon statements and make living Yogg/C'Thun the canon fact instead), it's not even a matter of interpretation. It's just whether your lore is updated enough.

Remember "Perhaps to actually destroy something that lives outside of time and space, life and death, you would have to erase it from existence completely". (An ingame quote refering to the old gods)

You aren't even knowing your sources. It wasn't an in-game quote, it was Nyorloth's old forum post - which actually would have given it WoG status (since he was still part of the WoW developing team by then) and made it *more* canon than an in-game quote if not for him to refute its canonical status in the same post that you missed (or intentionally skipped) "Idle musings, pay no heed". Too bad (for you), he put that in.

Not to mention, even without that line, it'd still be overwrite by Blizzcon Cataclysm Q&A section or Kosak's interview in MoP due to newer canon overriding older canon if they are in conflict rule anyway.

Edit: have a bonus!

"It was not necessarily anything related to their deaths which caused the Cataclysm. Consequences of killing an Old God were explored with the sha, and then expanded upon in Chronicle, which states that the only reason killing the Old Gods would destroy Azeroth is because they had embedded themselves too deep in the planet's crust for the Pantheon to tear them out without causing permanent damage to the world-soul. It was also later confirmed that it was Deathwing shattering the World Pillar that caused the Shattering."

Uhh... why are you quoting this? You realized that this wasn't what an official source said but the opinion of an Wowpedia user, did you? Even though you accepted that wiki sites shouldn't be used as 100% reliable source, why are you considering this "a bonus" as if it was canon? Are you... really that desperate (or maybe just hasty)?

[Makorus]

Dunno why people argue that "WELL WE DIDNT KILL THEM BECAUSE WE DIDN'T DOOM AZEROTH!!!".

Like, the titans LITERALLY ripped them out of the planet.

Compare it to a wart. If you rip one out, it's gonna be a bloodbath. If you ice it, it will slowly wither and die off. That's what we did.

Like, they try to resurrect C'thun. Resurrect usually means that the entity has to be dead.

[Daevelian]

Such as? I'm very open to it - show me any canonical source stating clearly that Yogg is alive - be it from a novel, a comic, a quest, or an Blizzard developer. I've seen people claiming that C'Thun and Yogg are alive, but I've never seen anyone able to provide a quote that explicitly stating so. 99.99% people just give vague NPC's speech (which aren't that reliable to begin with) - in particular that infamous line "They do not die, they do not live, they are outside of the circle" from WoTLK and then proceed to speculate those speeches.


You aren't even knowing your sources. It wasn't an in-game quote, it was Nyorloth's old forum post - which actually would have given it WoG status (since he was still part of the WoW developing team by then) and made it *more* canon than an in-game quote if not for him to refute its canonical status in the same post that you missed (or intentionally skipped) "Idle musings, pay no heed". Too bad (for you), he put that in.

Not to mention, even without that line, it'd still be overwrite by Blizzcon Cataclysm Q&A section or Kosak's interview in MoP due to newer canon > older canon rule anyway.


Uhh... why are you quoting this? You realized that this wasn't what an official source said but the opinion of an Wowpedia user, did you? Even though you accepted that wiki sites shouldn't be used as 100% reliable source, why are you considering this "a bonus" as if it was canon? Are you... really that desperate (or maybe just hasty)?

Well, i figured if your entire point is just opinions, mine should be too!

Also, no, that quote was not from whoever that guy was you stated, but ingame! Maybe try reading sometime?

https://wow.gamepedia.com/The_Old_Go...ing_of_Azeroth

Oh my, a source just as valid as a comic or some narratively perspective quest text! And guess what? it uses the same kind of narrative as your beloved quest!

Yogg alive? 7.2.5 Magni scenario, or did you not pay attention to the signs pointing to it being good ole Yoggy? Perhaps try playing with sound on? seems viable for the same reasons as above. (Hint, his voice was exactly the same as yoggy's voice, even down to the accent)

As for the last quote? It just seemed like a good quote to use that combines all the information we have so far, and it lines up FAR more than your theory about the deaths of old gods causing the cataclysm regardless of coming from wowpedia? Are you really lacking of a comeback to it that you have to resort to "ugh, really? desperate?" as response?

I'd like to see you disprove it in light of the sha being the result of a dead old god, rather than, you know, a cataclysm. (Dunno bout you, but i'll take Chronicle over a 2010 blizzcon quote any day of the week, which is ironic since you said to use new canon > old canon, try using new canon yourself...)

[Neezus]

With this whole are they alive or dead argument I cant help but agree with Daevelian on all of this. This whole "Word of God" point is contradictive itself. that's the whole reason the Chronicle was created. to retcon all of what Blizz has mixed up between these countless expansion and their non connecting stories. The whole C'thun death quest text was done at a time when they didn't know what the hell they were doing with the story. I would bet if that specific part right there were to get enough attention this very day, It would be retcon'd. I'm team Alive, mostly because I've been a fanboy of OG's since cata (when i started playing) and this whole "they are dead" argument has never been brought to my attention until now. I might be living under a rock, but this is the absolute first time I've heard of it. A lot of these points being made are being classified under "WoG" which in itself is the problem. The lore itself is being modified to keep up with how the story is progressing. I even made a new account here just to join this debate. And this Skull of Guldan speaking to people is new to me also. It was just a conduit of power from my understanding unless something new happened or I missed something.

[Qualia]

Well, i figured if your entire point is just opinions, mine should be too!

Except that my point was backed with proper, canonical sources while yours... uh... sources were opinions taken from Wowpedia. Again, please, give me developers' posts, novel quotes, comic links, in-game quest texts by the omniscient narrator's words stating that C'Thun and Yogg are still alive. I'm waiting. And in regards to that, we move onto the next point:

Also, no, that quote was not from whoever that guy was you stated, but ingame! Maybe try reading sometime?

https://wow.gamepedia.com/The_Old_Go...ing_of_Azeroth

Oh my, a source just as valid as a comic or some narratively perspective quest text! And guess what? it uses the same kind of narrative as your beloved quest!

Again, let me ask you, do you even know your own source? Did you, by any chance, just link random article without even reading it, or are you trolling? Your supposed "in-game quote" was "Perhaps to actually destroy something that lives outside of time and space, life and death, you would have to erase it from existence completely". Now, click on your link, it will direct you to the website contain the content of that in-game book. Press Ctrl+F, then type the quote in, or if you are unsure, read through it and find the quote manually. Now, copy and paste the paragraph that contains your quote and put it in bold for me. Do you know why I'm going through all the trouble telling you this? Because your Wowpedia article didn't contain anything remotely resemble your quote. Please, show me that quote from the article you linked and prove that my eyes aren't working properly. Alternatively... maybe try reading sometime?

If you are just trying to link random stuffs without even bother to proof-reading your post just so you get the last word in, then please tell me. I wouldn't even bother continuing. I'm here to discuss lore properly with canonical sources, not to have a pissing contest against teens and try to see who finish last.

Yogg alive? 7.2.5 Magni scenario, or did you not pay attention to the signs pointing to it being good ole Yoggy? Perhaps try playing with sound on? seems viable for the same reasons as above. (Hint, his voice was exactly the same as yoggy's voice, even down to the accent)

Hint: being able to whisper to us doesn't mean someone or something was alive, so that isn't a conclusive evidence of Yogg being alive.

Skull of Gul'dan can whisper to its user and actually hold proper conversation. Is MU Gul'dan who, by the way, was always just a mortal orc, still alive? Y'Shaarj was stated to be "very very very dead", and its heart was whispering to us happily. How many "very" do you need to be convinced that it's actually... dead? Another two or three lines of "very", perhaps? Being able to talk and interact with the living world even after dead isn't that hard in WoW as long as you are powerful enough.

As for the last quote? It just seemed like a good quote to use that combines all the information we have so far, and it lines up FAR more than your theory about the deaths of old gods causing the cataclysm regardless of coming from wowpedia? Are you really lacking of a comeback to it that you have to resort to "ugh, really? desperate?" as response?

I'd like to see you disprove it in light of the sha being the result of a dead old god, rather than, you know, a cataclysm. (Dunno bout you, but i'll take Chronicle over a 2010 blizzcon quote any day of the week, which is ironic since you said to use new canon > old canon, try using new canon yourself...)

Except that Chronicle never stated Sha was the only result of a dead Old God. There could be more than one result, you know? Chronicle didn't contradict Blizzcon Q&A quote, so they both add up to each other. There isn't any overriding here. The dead of an Old God would both weaken the world and create crappy stuffs such as the Sha (notice how Saronite Vapors are spawning Faceless Echoes in Ulduar now?).

Your quote sounds like good theory, with the exception that it - you know - goes against WoG. That's all it took to bring that theory down. People who are convinced that the earth is flat have good theories to support it as well, but it didn't make it true. We build theories around canon, not against it. When you go against canon, no matter how good of a theory it can be, it just won't be canon.

With this whole are they alive or dead argument I cant help but agree with Daevelian on all of this. This whole "Word of God" point is contradictive itself. that's the whole reason the Chronicle was created. to retcon all of what Blizz has mixed up between these countless expansion and their non connecting stories. The whole C'thun death quest text was done at a time when they didn't know what the hell they were doing with the story. I would bet if that specific part right there were to get enough attention this very day, It would be retcon'd. I'm team Alive, mostly because I've been a fanboy of OG's since cata (when i started playing) and this whole "they are dead" argument has never been brought to my attention until now. I might be living under a rock, but this is the absolute first time I've heard of it. A lot of these points being made are being classified under "WoG" which in itself is the problem. The lore itself is being modified to keep up with how the story is progressing. I even made a new account here just to join this debate. And this Skull of Guldan speaking to people is new to me also. It was just a conduit of power from my understanding unless something new happened or I missed something.

It's true that Words of God can be contradicts to each others, especially in WoW. However, it didn't make WoG any less valid. The rule of canonical stuff: whatever stated by the author(s) (in this case, Blizzard WoW development team) will be canon and, if the later canon contradict with the earlier, the later one will override it unless the author(s) states otherwise. The lore can be modified and updated, we just go with the most recent, non-contradicted one - and that quote was one of those. There hasn't been any other canon information outright contradicting it (can't be explained otherwise), so it's - like it or not - still canon. Else, we may as well say that everything before Chronicle weren't canon, you know as well that it isn't true.

I see that you are a new account. Assuming you aren't someone's alt, I guess you either are very new here, or you didn't really check the lore much. This topic has been discussed and explained over and over and over for years. Here, official lore forum and a bit over SoL as well. It's kinda hard to miss that if you visit those on a remotely frequent basis (I mean, just look at people's reaction against it here: it was "not this again" instead of "what?").

In regards to Skull of Gul'dan, even if we are going to consider its whisper in game non-canon, check the novel "Beyond the Dark Portal". In it, the Skull was holding conversations with its users, and proper conversations at it even. It was even talking back and forth instead of giving one-sided whispers (in a way, like our Xal'atath).

[Aquamonkey]

https://wow.gamepedia.com/index.php?...action=history

Someone's been having fun altering sources to suit their own headcanon i see?

You might like to do something about good ole yoggy, i don't see you listed here as changing his status yet!

https://wow.gamepedia.com/index.php?...action=history

Edit to add: If you want to falsify stuff, you should probably not use accounts with similar user names.

Yea... altering sources... you mean adding sources where there were none? Sources that flat out say C'Thun is dead. No flowery metaphors, no unreliable character PoV, just explicit omniscient narrator saying "C'Thun is dead."

[anaxie]

THANK GOD finally unbanned.

anyway who controls silithus? Twilights Hammer
Who worships N'zoth? Twilights Hammer
Who doesn't have a leader? Twilights Hammer
Where has Jaina Gone? Twilights Hammer

Jaina is going to want Well of Eternity 2.0 to get her way.

- - - Updated - - -

Yea... altering sources... you mean adding sources where there were none? Sources that flat out say C'Thun is dead. No flowery metaphors, no unreliable character PoV, just explicit omniscient narrator saying "C'Thun is dead."

ABsolutely dead. Doesn't rule out a Kara 2.0 new storyline shoved into AQ however. Which I expect. along with Timewalking Ulduar.

Cho'gall couldn't rez C'thun. The new leader of Twilights Cult with the power of a new bigger and badder Well of Eternity at their fingertips? Childs play.

- - - Updated - - -

In regards to Skull of Gul'dan, even if we are going to consider its whisper in game non-canon, check the novel "Beyond the Dark Portal". In it, the Skull was holding conversations with its users, and proper conversations at it even. It was even talking back and forth instead of giving one-sided whispers (in a way, like our Xal'atath).

and three seperate weapons in Legion that talk to owners.

whooptie do

[Jorah]

anyway who controls silithus? Twilights Hammer
Who worships N'zoth? Twilights Hammer
Who doesn't have a leader? Twilights Hammer
Where has Jaina Gone? Twilights Hammer

Since when Jaina goes to TH? We don't even know if she goes to Kul Tiras.

[huth]

Since when Jaina goes to TH? We don't even know if she goes to Kul Tiras.

It's anaxie.

[LarryWithTheWeatherReport]

THANK GOD finally unbanned.

anyway who controls silithus? Twilights Hammer
Who worships N'zoth? Twilights Hammer
Who doesn't have a leader? Twilights Hammer
Where has Jaina Gone? Twilights Hammer

Jaina is going to want Well of Eternity 2.0 to get her way.

- - - Updated - - -



ABsolutely dead. Doesn't rule out a Kara 2.0 new storyline shoved into AQ however. Which I expect. along with Timewalking Ulduar.

Cho'gall couldn't rez C'thun. The new leader of Twilights Cult with the power of a new bigger and badder Well of Eternity at their fingertips? Childs play.

- - - Updated - - -



and three seperate weapons in Legion that talk to owners.

whooptie do

Twilight Hammer should be a joinable faction.

Do u think Azshara would betray the nagas in order to join the Twilight Hammer?

Should the remnants of the Legion join the Twilight Hammer?

How many members are in the Twilight Hammer?

[Aeluron Lightsong]

Pretty sure Sargeras still has a body, else I don't see how he could cause the big wound in Silithus. Also, if C'thun's corpse is still near AQ or around there, I wouldn't mind him being revived. It isn't like we got a decent send off for him in Vanilla.

[anaxie]

Twilight Hammer should be a joinable faction.

Do u think Azshara would betray the nagas in order to join the Twilight Hammer?

Should the remnants of the Legion join the Twilight Hammer?

How many members are in the Twilight Hammer?

......... just stop. no

[flan1337]

thats just a terrain map though, and its WIP, not accounting for game objects placed.

You have a valid point! What if the tip was left behind? That would be a awesome sight to see

[Teri]

Haven't been able to go to Kalimdor on PTR at all the last days, as if they turned off the continent server, other areas work fine.

[Renley]

Skull of Gul'dan can whisper to its user and actually hold proper conversation. Is MU Gul'dan who, by the way, was always just a mortal orc, still alive? Y'Shaarj was stated to be "very very very dead", and its heart was whispering to us happily. How many "very" do you need to be convinced that it's actually... dead? Another two or three lines of "very", perhaps? Being able to talk and interact with the living world even after dead isn't that hard in WoW as long as you are powerful enough.

Y'shaarj's heart whispered to us because it wasn't dead. The Vale waters, laced with titan's blood, revived it.

[Aquamonkey]

Y'shaarj's heart whispered to us because it wasn't dead. The Vale waters, laced with titan's blood, revived it.

Y'Shaarj's heart was whispering before it was revived. "It thirsts."

[KrakHed]

Y'Shaarj's heart was whispering before it was revived. "It thirsts."

Hell, Y'Shaarj himself told us he was only sleeping in one of the scenarios, long before the Vale water. There was definitely some degree of consciousness there.

[Rafoel]

Y'Shaarj's heart was whispering before it was revived. "It thirsts."

That wasn't a whisper. Garrosh just stated his own observation.

- - - Updated - - -

Hell, Y'Shaarj himself told us he was only sleeping in one of the scenarios, long before the Vale water. There was definitely some degree of consciousness there.

Quote? Don't remeber that.