Unrest in Spain: the Spanish government is taking control of the Catalan police force

[Allenseiei]

The Spanish government are idiots. Except on a single poll a couple years back, there have never been a majority in Catalan in favour of secession. There IS however, a clear majority in favour of a referendum on it. By clamping down on this, and using force in a way that plays into the hands of those wanting a secession, the Spanish government risks creating a majority that strongly favours secession, with all the trouble that this implies, down the road.

A national referendum is not what the secessionists want. They know they would lose.
A only catalonian referendum is against the constitution, since it affects the lives of all Spaniards.

[Zecora]

It's not like they had a choice. They have to follow the democratic process designated by the constitution. Breaking the law had far worse implications.

Might be, it's still likely to create a far worse situation than if they let the referendum go ahead.

[Deleted]

It's not. Seperationism is a sickness that has to be cured. The solution to today's world's problems is solidarity, not walls and borders.

Spain was never a union. Several groups were conquered and subdued. There is no nationalism under the spanish flag. Rather than force it, it's best to let everyone have their own corner. For union to happen, the sides have to come together by their own will, not by force.

[Deleted]

They have the right to vote for self-determination, the thing is that it should be in a legal way that the spanish constitution can allow (wich it does and it can be done). The Catalan goverment has had plenty of chances to go through congress but it has deny it becouse they want the things go in their way becouse they know that, though the have a majority of supporters, they dont have everyone in Catalonia to support the creation of a new country and there are pleny of people that dont want to leave. As a spanish citizen I agree they should be able to vote but I disagree in what they are doing right now.

First of all becouse they dont have the full support of their own Catalonian goverment with several parties dismissed in an undemocratic way this past month and the purge of several non-independence supporters in several wings of the goverment officials since july of this year. Without even mentioning the coercion to plenty of them.

Second becouse there is no way for the people to know how the recount of votes is going to be done or with what majority should the indepence be validated, as far as anybody knows there is no record in what documentation youd should provide to identify yourself as a Catalonian citizen on the 1st of October.

Third becouse all the refemdum is being done by the parties that want indepence and the rest of parties that also form the Catalonian goverment are not in the process so there is no way to know the legimity at the counting of the votes.

In realty they are playing the division card and forcing the spanish goverment to be the opressor force to play like a victim to gather more support. That´s that.

[Zecora]

A national referendum is not what the secessionists want. They know they would lose.
A only catalonian referendum is against the constitution, since it affects the lives of all Spaniards.

Yes, well...the problem that such a un-democratic constitution poses is another problem entirely.

[Allenseiei]

Yes, well...the problem that such a un-democratic constitution poses is another problem entirely.

Un democratic? You think imposing the point of view of 8 million people and destroying the economy of a country of 44 million people is democratic then?

The democratic way, is to make a national referendum, where all parties involved have a say. In such a referendum, the separatists would lose. Something they have avoided doing by not coming to congress to explain.
It's not even 8 million of catalonians who approve of the secession. In a nominal point of view, Secessionists don't even have 50% of the votes, however they have mayority in parliament because different census zones have different weights.

The secessionists however, have violated what democracy is by:
1. Removing rights of dialogue to the oposition parties. (Roughly 40% of the parliament's opinion discarded, and more of 50% of the voters ignored).
2. Skipping Catalonian Law and approving scripts without the ability to make amendments to them.
3. Oppresing Mayors who reject the referendum.

[minteK917]

Un democratic? You think imposing the point of view of 8 million people and destroying the economy of a country of 44 million people is democratic then?

The democratic way, is to make a national referendum, where all parties involved have a say. In such a referendum, the separatists would lose.
It's not even 8 million of catalonians who approve of the secession. In a nominal point of view, Secessionists don't even have 50% of the votes, however they have mayority in parliament because different census zones have different weights.

Thats how all british law referendum are.... When Quebec and Scottland referendum takes place, only their citizen can vote, not Canada or England. Any other kind of constituntional right is actually breaking the right to self determination. England doesent get to tell Scottland no, only Scottland gets to tell Scottland no. Same goes here, Spain doesent get a say under international law when ever they can leave or not, only the citizen of the area going for independence gets to self determinate. Hope i helped you understand how it actually works. This was clearly established after ww2, just because some nations pretend to ignore this, doesent mean they can in the end. The deeper Madrid goes into breaking international right to self determination, easier they are making it for the referendum in the end.

[Allenseiei]

Thats how all british law referendum are.... When Quebec and Scottland referendum takes place, only their citizen can vote, not Canada or England. Any other kind of constituntional right is actually breaking the right to self determination. England doesent get to tell Scottland no, only Scottland gets to tell Scottland no. Same goes here, Spain doesent get a say under international law when ever they can leave or not, only the citizen of the area going for independence gets to self determinate. Hope i helped you understand how it actually works.

United Kingdom is different. It's made of different little countries. Spain, however, is not. Catalonia approved of the constitution, when it was signed, in fact they were very eager to do so. Catalonia was never a country, nor it was a crown, it was just a principality of the Crown of Aragon.

The constitution, approved by all, does not let a region form a decision that will effect the entegrity of the country as a whole.

[ArguesWithStrangers]

In general. Problems don't vanish if you put a fence around them. Not that fences would work anyway in a globalized economy. Having 194 nations instead of 193 doesn't improve anything, and the bigger bureaucratic overhead is the least of the problems this causes.



Borders are a temporary evil that will vanish eventually anyway. Not in my or your lifetime, though. Just look at a map from 100 years ago and compare it to today. That's a development that won't be stopped by a few deluded nationalists.

Oh good grief. The only thing more ridiculous than the notion that nation states will cease to exist within the next millenia is the notion that it would in any way work out well for those in the first world.

Oh and by the way, there were about 80 soverign states in 1900 and there are 195 now, so there goes that little theory. One google search dude. One, quick, google search. Sigh.

http://www.worldlibrary.org/articles...states_in_1900

http://www.nationsonline.org/oneworld/states.htm

[ro9ue]

It's not. Seperationism is a sickness that has to be cured. The solution to today's world's problems is solidarity, not walls and borders.

That sounds nice but in history and practice, the more territory and people a central governing body controls, the worse the lives of the people it's ruling. It's why the US was born.

Humans evolved to exist in tribes of around ~50 people with a solid hierarchy that's fulfilling to participate in for each of its members. Any time an organization gets bigger than this, it generally gives more power to the top, and less power to the bottom.

We've done a good job expanding from that number in modern times, but it's still a reason why we have people making decisions negatively impacting peoples lives from 10,000 miles away.

In the US in particular we're trying to basically have a bunch of smaller tribes like local governments, that make up a medium tribe of state governments, and then a larger tribe in the federal. Could even make the argument the UN is an attempt at another level hierarchy but it's simply just a power broker thing.


ANyway I went on too long.

[Frontenac]

They decided for themselves to not have any claim of sovereignty when they voted, in referendum and democratically, for the Spanish constitution. Now they can follow procedure and arrange a referendum with the rest of the country. The catalonian elite, however, is choosing unilaterally to break the rule of law.

The Constitution of 1978 put a definitive end to the Franco regime. Anyone with a reasonable mind would have voted yes to that.

Is there a procedure in the Spanish Constitution about the secession of one of the Autonomous Communities? I doubt it.

Also, it is a principle that no one can alienate its own freedom. I suppose it is also true for peoples.

[minteK917]

United Kingdom is different. It's made of different little countries. Spain, however, is not. Catalonia approved of the constitution, when it was signed, in fact they were very eager to do so. Catalonia was never a country, nor it was a crown, it was just a principality of the Crown of Aragon.

The constitution, approved by all, does not let a region form a decision that will effect the entegrity of the country as a whole.

Doesent matter to international law. Every region of the world has the same right to self determination since the end of World War 2. I dont know if you realize this, but sovereign states is always increasing, Spain is not about to stop this. Constitution doesent trump a region right to self determination, ask the Americans. The only thing a constitution does is that if it wont change to let a region make a constitutional independence, they will make independence in another way. Madrid does not get to ignore the right to self determination of any of its region, just because it wants to. They wont have international support for this either. Constitution doesent do shit here, the only thing Madrid can actually do is hold the region by force like China would.

[Mihalik]

That sounds nice but in history and practice, the more territory and people a central governing body controls, the worse the lives of the people it's ruling. It's why the US was born.

Humans evolved to exist in tribes of around ~50 people with a solid hierarchy that's fulfilling to participate in for each of its members. Any time an organization gets bigger than this, it generally gives more power to the top, and less power to the bottom.

We've done a good job expanding from that number in modern times, but it's still a reason why we have people making decisions negatively impacting peoples lives from 10,000 miles away.

In the US in particular we're trying to basically have a bunch of smaller tribes like local governments, that make up a medium tribe of state governments, and then a larger tribe in the federal. Could even make the argument the UN is an attempt at another level hierarchy but it's simply just a power broker thing.


ANyway I went on too long.

Huh? Nothing there made any sort of sense. Not to mention you are historically WRONG.

Our quality of life, safety, life expectancy and personal freedom increased EXPONENTIALLY in the past couple of millennia. Starting from the rise of the first cities to our modern times, during those periods several notable leaps were made, the most important of which being the rise of centralized unitary states, with a monopoly on the use of force and the ability to pool and redistribute ever increasing amounts of resources.

This centralized organizational structure allowed us to develop past subsistence farming, took away power from local warlords and allowed the creation of this thing known as "civilization".

[ArguesWithStrangers]

It would obviously be a long process of integration. For a North American Union to form, the War on Drugs would have to end.

And Mexico, Canada, and all the Central American states would have to decide to give up their soveregnty. Also, Americans would have to decide to give up theirs. Hint, it's never going to happen. There is no people on Earth more jealous of their sovereignty and more able to enforce it. There is no reason at all to think any of this would happen. Borders almost always change through conquest or revolution. There is no way something like this happens without horiffic violence. It's an awful thing to wish for.

The world is trending towards the de-centralization of power, not the other way around. The EU can't even keep their member states in line because it lacks the will and capability to enforce its mandates. A global economy allows city-states to trade their goods and services across the globe, removing the need for large, slow, centralized bureaucracies.

[Tabrotar]

Doesent matter to international law. Every region of the world has the same right to self determination since the end of World War 2. I dont know if you realize this, but sovereign states is always increasing, Spain is not about to stop this. Constitution doesent trump a region right to self determination, ask the Americans. The only thing a constitution does is that if it wont change to let a region make a constitutional independence, they will make independence in another way. Madrid does not get to ignore the right to self determination of any of its region, just because it wants to. They wont have international support for this either. Constitution doesent do shit here, the only thing Madrid can actually do is hold the region by force like China would.

Ah ok and who decides that they don´t have support for their course of action? You? I?

[ranzino]

The Constitution of 1978 put a definitive end to the Franco regime. Anyone with a reasonable mind would have voted yes to that.

Is there a procedure in the Spanish Constitution about the secession of one of the Autonomous Communities? I doubt it.

Also, it is a principle that no one can alienate its own freedom. I suppose it is also true for peoples.

There is also the question why people of today should cede all their rights because of a decision in 1978 forever.
Spain will never break the spirit of Catalonia and Madrid knows it. Best Madrid could do is offer them more autonomy, if they want to keep the union intact.

[Zecora]

Un democratic? You think imposing the point of view of 8 million people and destroying the economy of a country of 44 million people is democratic then?

Moreso than the rest of the country perpetually deciding that the 8 million can never decide their own destiny. The constitution in question is akin to a marriage that you cannot get out of unless your partner agrees that you should be allowed to. And if said methaphorical partner is absolutely dependant on your earnings, why would s/he ever agree to that? Hence you would be his/her hostage indefinitely.

That is in no way democratic.

[Frontenac]

Un democratic? You think imposing the point of view of 8 million people and destroying the economy of a country of 44 million people is democratic then?

The democratic way, is to make a national referendum, where all parties involved have a say. In such a referendum, the separatists would lose. Something they have avoided doing by not coming to congress to explain.
It's not even 8 million of catalonians who approve of the secession. In a nominal point of view, Secessionists don't even have 50% of the votes, however they have mayority in parliament because different census zones have different weights.

The secessionists however, have violated what democracy is by:
1. Removing rights of dialogue to the oposition parties. (Roughly 40% of the parliament's opinion discarded, and more of 50% of the voters ignored).
2. Skipping Catalonian Law and approving scripts without the ability to make amendments to them.
3. Oppresing Mayors who reject the referendum.

The problem is that the rigidity of Madrid makes it difficult to hold a good and orderly referendum. Madrid should have accepted such a referendum long ago. It would have been legal, with appointed officials, a party for the Yes, a party for the No, an "electoral" campaign with debates and then the people of Catalonia would have voted. And guess what? They may very well have voted No. And we would have a clear view of what Catalonia wants. But instead, Madrid is acting like a bully and pushes more and more Catalans towards independance. Because you don't want to remain in a country that negates your right to choose.

[Deleted]

The Constitution of 1978 put a definitive end to the Franco regime. Anyone with a reasonable mind would have voted yes to that.

Is there a procedure in the Spanish Constitution about the secession of one of the Autonomous Communities? I doubt it.

Also, it is a principle that no one can alienate its own freedom. I suppose it is also true for peoples.

The regime was dead 3 years earlier. They drafted one constitution and they liked it; they could have drafted a different one that they liked better: they didn't.
The constitution establishes the indissoluble unity of the nation and the necessity for self-governing of regions in the two first articles.
The procedure is clear: arrange a referendum with the rest of the sovereigns (all of the Spanish people). Or change the constitution, which can also be done. The Catalonia elite is choosing the lazy way out: agitate and alienate the people.

[minteK917]

Ah ok and who decides that they don´t have support for their course of action? You? I?

Only the citizen of Catalonia can decide this. In a vote, among themselves. There is no need of regular citizen from outside to support them. China breaks international rules all the time, only gets a bad rep, because nobody can deal against china. Spain aint so lucky as to be able to ignore international law if it wants to be viewed as a legitimate western country. They cant legally stop a referendum, even if a voted constitution says so. They would not get support anywhere in Europe or North America to force Catalonia not to use its right to self determination.

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The regime was dead 3 years earlier. They drafted one constitution and they liked it; they could have drafted a different one that they liked better: they didn't.
The constitution establishes the indissoluble unity of the nation and the necessity for self-governing of regions in the two first articles.
The procedure is clear: arrange a referendum with the rest of the sovereigns (all of the Spanish people). Or change the constitution, which can also be done. The Catalonia elite is choosing the lazy way out: agitate and alienate the people.

Constitution never trumped human rights, this include rights to self determination. Doesent matter what it says, they can attempt independence legitimately and it will be regarded as such on the international level. We had a century of sovereign states forming people, constitutions means dick. Most countries dont want territories to leave and simply ignores it in their laws, doesent mean it wont happen, it already happend all over the place. The only difference is that if you dont facilitate it like british law eventually did, youll get people doing it by force, which is just as legitimate on the international level.