Unrest in Spain: the Spanish government is taking control of the Catalan police force

[Allenseiei]

abiding by slavery laws in USA was also not such a good idea, sorry. there is just no automatism of "established law = pink fluffy unicorns".
and for your last sentence: if those 7,5 million catalonians vote in favour of independence, the case itself would be settled.
terms of independence are another issue then.

Comparing slavery laws to a law that only dictates that decisions that put the whole country at risk can't be done by a minority? Really?

How can those 7.5M catalonians vote, if their representatives in congress don't have the right to speak or introduce amendments to the laws that were recently approved by the secessionists?

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nobody said independence means the end of travel and commerce with Spain.

Do you think after leaving the EU with the new tarrifs, and the clearly unfavorable relationships between these two regions, commerce will be the same? Costs of traveling to Catalonia increase for all the EU, costs for Catalonia to sell goods in Spain increase too.

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Yes, you are breaking what the right to self determination is. If Madrid votes a law saying they abolish all propriety, its the same thing. Doesent matter if its now in the constitution, you are breaking the citizen right to their propriety. Even if 100% of the legislative voted in favor of it, its still breaking the citizen rights. They would be legitimate in burning down government buildings and arresting every last of their representative to preserve their right.

Catalonia voted in favor of the constitution. All regions voted the constitution. All regions approved the constitution.
Catalonia should be taking steps to getting the other regions to approve an amendment to change that law. Not to bypass everything unilateraly, even its own people.
By the way, you example is laughable. If it goes into the constitution it must have a great mayority vote in the national referendum, which is needed to introduce amendments in the constitution. Madrid can't do it unilateraly. Appart from being utterly unrealistic, the citizens vote, not the legislative.

[Tabrotar]

Ok let me lame that clearer for you: If i say i have a right to self determination and i then go on and kill people because i determine i don´t like them would i also be in the right? Or if i occupie a house because i determined i deserve said house?

[minteK917]

Do you think after leaving the EU with the new tarrifs, and the clearly unfavorable relationships between these two regions, commerce will be the same? Costs of traveling to Catalonia increase for all the EU, costs for Catalonia to sell goods in Spain increase too.

And? If the citizen of Catalonia think its a fair trade for their independence, its a fair trade for their independence? How is this so hard to get. This is how most western countries work already man. I realize culture barrier might be here since you are in Asia, but stuff like right to self determinate and right to propriety here, have been big deals for a while. You will have a hard time convincing people from ex British colonies that independence votes are not important to add in a constitution, because most of our nations had to do it one way or another.

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Ok let me lame that clearer for you: If i say i have a right to self determination and i then go on and kill people because i determine i don´t like them would i also be in the right? Or if i occupie a house because i determined i deserve said house?

Nope because your right stops when the other one begins. You broke someones right to life. I advocate you actually pick up a book about human rights before you continue arguing laws and how they work in accordance to the human rights.

[Deleted]

As someone living in a country that did, yes it works fine for the one that didnt have to struggle in a war for it recently. The harder you try to stop it, with the most force you use, the worse it will get, wont get better. Had they given Catalonia a fair vote instantly, independence would have lost. Spain chose the stupid way, it will get worse. I can tell you as someone living in a country that had terrorist attack by some separatism, buckle up if you think ignore it will help lol. The harder the stance Madrid takes, the harder it will get.

Spain has a rich history if independent movements. With terrorists too.
The current Catalan bid is only stronger because it's immersed in major public unrest throughout the country. Compounded with an economical crisis that left it fiscally tied.
I'm confident that they will lament not having a referendum earlier. But it's clear that the public opinion in Catalonia is fickle, easy to change, and heavily influenced: they passed from 10 to almost 50% support for independence in the span of a decade. They can be herded back. And they will: with fiscal easing.
The major parties are comfortable with independent movements. They all benefit from Catalonia having a parliamentary block with whom they can arrange political agreements. The conservatives formed a government with them; and the socialists all but spearheaded the secession sentiment. Having a demonstration now and then is the small price they pay.

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Yes, you are breaking what the right to self determination is.

Again: the right to self-determination doesn't grantee a right to secede. Rights are not absolute, and self-determination collides with territorial integrity, which is a major component of international law.

Nope because your right stops when the other one begins.

Exactly. Self-determination has a stop too. Somewhere.
In Catalonia's case it ends in Spain's right to self-determine. Because the Spanish people are not a separate entity from the Catalonia people: they're a sub-set. The Spanish people, Catalonia included, determined to have a indissoluble nation. They're just subject to their end of the agreement.

[Tabrotar]

And? If the citizen of Catalonia think its a fair trade for their independence, its a fair trade for their independence? How is this so hard to get. This is how most western countries work already man. I realize culture barrier might be here since you are in Asia, but stuff like right to self determinate and right to propriety here, have been big deals for a while. You will have a hard time convincing people from ex British colonies that independence votes are not important to add in a constitution, because most of our nations had to do it one way or another.

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Nope because your right stops when the other one begins. You broke someones right to life. I advocate you actually pick up a book about human rights before you continue arguing laws and how they work in accordance to the human rights.

Ok last attemp to make it a lot easier for you: You said my rights stop when others begin. So wtf is the difference between Spain have a law which forbids a sereration and that?

[Shandalar]

People knowing exactly 0 about Spain's history talking about the "right" of the Catalonians to "vote" against a "tyrannical goverment", lol.

Really sad.

1 - Catalonia is not a conquered country conquered by another, is just one of the fundational parts of Spain, as Andalusia or Castilla.

2 - This "referendum" is directly against the Spanish Constitution, breaking the legality and stealing the rest of Spaniards the right to decide about their country.

3 - The Catalonian goverment is the most tyrannical goverment in an actual democratic country. Years of indoctrination, speechs of hate and racism against the rest of Spaniards, harassment against the (mayoritary) not independenceist Catalonians, bullying against the rest of political parties, and lastly ignoring all the basic pillars of the law ignoring all the judge's dictates against their "laws" and manners, including the Constitutional Court ones, the maximun authority in Spain.

[minteK917]

Ok last attemp to make it a lot easier for you: You said my rights stop when others begin. So wtf is the difference between Spain have a law which forbids a sereration and that?

You can make a law stopping people from having rights. They can break your laws, nobody is gona bat an eyelash internationally. Just like now, no one country is even bothering with Spain trouble. Let me tell you something. Say Catalonia had its referendum tomorrow, even if Spain said its illegal. If leaving won with 60%, 70+% of the other countries would actually recognize Catalonia as a new country lol. Thats how pointless all this debate is. Its not the first time this situation happened, wont be the last either. Spain doesent have the power to arm wrestle around this like China can, hell even China can barely do it, majority of the countries actually have relationship with Taiwan has a nation, even if their passport has a big PRC logo right in the front with a small Taiwan under it. If Catalonia voted Yes with a majority, every western nation would take the vote as legitimate, it literally does not matter in the end. The argument is pointless.

[Shandalar]

Spain was never a union. Several groups were conquered and subdued. There is no nationalism under the spanish flag. Rather than force it, it's best to let everyone have their own corner. For union to happen, the sides have to come together by their own will, not by force.

Jesus Christ

[Allenseiei]

And? If the citizen of Catalonia think its a fair trade for their independence, its a fair trade for their independence? How is this so hard to get. This is how most western countries work already man. I realize culture barrier might be here since you are in Asia, but stuff like right to self determinate and right to propriety here, have been big deals for a while. You will have a hard time convincing people from ex British colonies that independence votes are not important to add in a constitution, because most of our nations had to do it one way or another.

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Nope because your right stops when the other one begins. You broke someones right to life. I advocate you actually pick up a book about human rights before you continue arguing laws and how they work in accordance to the human rights.

We are not talking about what part of Catalonia has been made believe its a fair trade for their independence. I already know the cries for independence are emotional, not practical. What we are talking about is how PART of a small region bypasses law, and rights on its own region, to impose a situation upon the rest, and that its been stopped by a law in the constitution that they themselves voted for.

Edit: There's a general misconecption of poorly informed people. The separatist movement only has a slight mayority in parliament, but does not have so in votes. The oposition, which acounts 40~% in parliament and roughtly 50-52% of the votes, was taken out of negotiations and dicussion in the Catalonian parliament. So people should not talk about "Catalonia" wanting independence, but a part of it wanting independence.

If people are so in favor of this self determinism, then it would not be a foolish endeavour to do it the right way and present an amendment for the constitution, so that the entire country can vote for this clearly favored self determinism. So that EVERYONE has that right. If they did this, then Madrid would have nothing to say if the national referendum for this amendment was to go through as Yes. This is democracy.
If Madrid did not let this national referendum go through, the you could start speaking of tyranny, but the constitution itself makes the national government not able to stop such a referendum.

Is this so hard to get?

[ButterBeast]

No borders type of people are fringe nutcases that nobody should listen to.

I like how you kept a quote from some guy who burned you. Must have hit the right nerve.

[minteK917]

We are not talking about what part of Catalonia has been made believe its a fair trade for their independence. I already know the cries for independence are emotional, not practical. What we are talking about is how PART of a small region bypasses law, and rights on its own region, to impose a situation upon the rest, and that its been stopped by a law in the constitution that they themselves voted for.

If people are so in favor of this self determinism, then it would not be a foolish endeavour to do it the right way and present an amendment for the constitution, so that the entire country can vote for this clearly favored self determinism. So that EVERYONE has that right. If they did this, then Madrid would have nothing to say if the national referendum for this amendment was to go through as Yes.
If Madrid did not let this national referendum go through, the you could start speaking of tyranny, but the constitution itself makes the national government not able to stop such a referendum.

Is this so hard to get?

Thats again missing the point. No other citizen then the one in the region wishing to leave has the right to determinate if they want to leave dude. Just like the European union couldnt decide if Britain left or stayed. Same way Britain couldnt decide if Scottland left or stayed. Only the scottish citizen can decide of their faith. Only Catalonian can decide Catalonia faith.

Its a pretty simple concept. And again pointless to discuss, if they had their votes tomorrow and it won, even if Madrid said the vote is illegal. At the UN most countries would instantly recognize Catalonia has a new sovereign state and being diplomatic communication with its government as such. The european union would begin a process of having a vote to admit a new state into the union. List goes on. After the deed is done, what ever Spain would say would not even matter. They would be free to vote against Catalonia to join the EU, thats about it.

[Allenseiei]

Thats again missing the point. No other citizen then the one in the region wishing to leave has the right to determinate if they want to leave dude. Just like the European union couldnt decide if Britain left or stayed. Same way Britain couldnt decide if Scottland left or stayed. Only the scottish citizen can decide of their faith. Only Catalonian can decide Catalonia faith.

You are missing the point entirely. I don't know if you even know how modern law works at all.
UK had its laws, and when everyone signed and approved them, they approved them for every detail. UK disregarded 49% of its habitants when it left EU, but the law was enforced to let such a retarded number go through.
EU had its laws, and when everyone signed and approved them, they approved them for every detail. Some, the UK is trying to dodge, to reduce the costs of leaving.
Spain has its laws, and when everyone signed and approved them, they approved them for every detail.

If you disagree with a law, then you change it.
If everyone loves this self determinism, then let everyone vote for it. Present your case, make a national referendum, let everyone have the right. No one has the right to stop you then.

[Shandalar]

Thats again missing the point. No other citizen then the one in the region wishing to leave has the right to determinate if they want to leave dude. Just like the European union couldnt decide if Britain left or stayed. Same way Britain couldnt decide if Scottland left or stayed. Only the scottish citizen can decide of their faith. Only Catalonian can decide Catalonia faith.

Spanish Constitution:

"Artículo 1

1. España se constituye en un Estado social y democrático de Derecho, que propugna como valores superiores de su ordenamiento jurídico la libertad, la justicia, la igualdad y el pluralismo político.

2. La soberanía nacional reside en el pueblo español, del que emanan los poderes del Estado."

Traslation:

"1. Spain is hereby established as a social and democratic State, subject to the rule of law, which advocates as the highest values of its legal order, liberty, justice, equality and political pluralism.

2. National sovereignty is vested in the Spanish people, from whom emanate the powers of the State."

All the Spaniards decide what happens with Spain. Is that simple.

[ranzino]

Ok last attemp to make it a lot easier for you: You said my rights stop when others begin. So wtf is the difference between Spain have a law which forbids a sereration and that?

simple guess: Spain should not have such a law.
now this was easy ?

[Allenseiei]

simple guess: Spain should not have such a law.
now this was easy ?

Then, present the case for a national referendum to amend the constitution. If most people believe so, it will go through and the law will be removed.

[Tabrotar]

simple guess: Spain should not have such a law.
now this was easy ?

Right easy as fuck: Oh i don´t like e specific law so it have to go. I don´t like that i can´t murder someone so that law hat to go. I don´t like that i can´t take away someones belongings so that law has to go away...

Do you see how absolutly retarted that sounds?

[minteK917]

If you disagree with a law, then you change it.
If everyone loves this self determinism, then let everyone vote for it. Present your case, make a national referendum, let everyone have the right. No one has the right to stop you then.

They already all have that right. Just because the government of Spain doesent recognize it doesent matter in the end. It doesent matter. You can quote the spanish constitution, it doesent matter. Just like the RPC can quote all its laws saying Taiwan is not a country, in the eyes of most other countries, Taiwan is a sovereign state. If any section of Spain (not only Catalonia) Any single region, has a vote respecting democratic standards where all able voters of the region gets an equal vote for self determination. Most countries will still recognize that vote as legitimate. Constitution of a country is not some kind of ultimate unbreakable law, infact your constitution has no power over any other nation. So it cant do anything to prevent all other nations to declare they would view a region has a sovereign states even without a vote lol.

At the end of the day it doesent matter. The international community at large is the only thing that decides who is a sovereign state via their relation. What Spain or Catalonia do in this matter is hardly relevant. On the international level, most side with the smaller state if it has a votes or a struggle. If they have an "illegal vote" and win, if most states begin adressing Catalonia has a country, Spain constitution is already null and void over that territory, unless they want to enforce it by military force.

Its pretty much pointless to argue with people that think constitution are some grand unbreakable thing lol. Almost has bad as people thinking treaties are some kind of massive thing lol.

[Citizen T]

In general. Problems don't vanish if you put a fence around them. Not that fences would work anyway in a globalized economy. Having 194 nations instead of 193 doesn't improve anything, and the bigger bureaucratic overhead is the least of the problems this causes.



Borders are a temporary evil that will vanish eventually anyway. Not in my or your lifetime, though. Just look at a map from 100 years ago and compare it to today. That's a development that won't be stopped by a few deluded nationalists.

Kind of a bad example. A map from 100 years ago would show a lot of British, French, Dutch, etc colonies that have now been separated from their original rulers. Not to mention the separation of the Soviet Union.

[Allenseiei]

They already all have that right. Just because the government of Spain doesent recognize it doesent matter in the end. It doesent matter. You can quote the spanish constitution, it doesent matter. Just like the RPC can quote all its laws saying Taiwan is not a country, in the eyes of most other countries, Taiwan is a sovereign state. If any section of Spain (not only Catalonia) Any single region, has a vote respecting democratic standards where all able voters of the region gets an equal vote for self determination. Most countries will still recognize that vote as legitimate. Constitution of a country is not some kind of ultimate unbreakable law, infact your constitution has no power over any other nation. So it cant do anything to prevent all other nations to declare they would view a region has a sovereign states even without a vote lol.

I see you completely lack any rationality and invoke arcaic arguments.

Let me tell you some things:
1. EU Law enforces countries to respect each countries laws when they are part of the EU. If that said country is in the EU, their laws have been recognized as valid. Thus the Spanish constition is legitimate in the views of its european allies at least.
2. Nationalism is not viewed a positive anywhere. Even less in EU, when the north of Italy, Belgium, UK and many other regions are hot spots for nationalism movements.
3. Catalonia's government is disregarding half of its region's opinion, not abiding with the Law (what would impede them to do the same when they are independent and want to join the EU?). They are not making too many friends either with this. They are calling oppression, when they themselves oppress their own people.

We are not talking about underdeveloped countries here, whose fates depend on others. We are talking about one of the most potent economic powers in the EU that are legitimate and respected by Law.
Catalonia as a whole, with almost 100% votes, approved this constitution, and now less than 50% of its own region wants to disregard it. They need to go through the proper procedures, if they wish to change it.

[Akka]

It's not a sickness at all. It was an independence movement that created the US and I applaud any entity's rights to succession and independence. Whether it's Kurdistan, Somaliland, Western Sahara, Catalonia, Quebec, Palestine, etc.

What about the Confederation ? Last I remember, you guys fought a pretty harsh war to prevent it.