Unrest in Spain: the Spanish government is taking control of the Catalan police force

[Tijuana]

No borders type of people are fringe nutcases that nobody should listen to.

Yeah, I'm just fine having a border between my people, and people like North Korea, Russia, Iran, etc. No thanks on the sleep over.

The no border crowd is nuts.

[sarahtasher]

I meant that the POUM truly chose an atrocious moment to make a stand for Catalonia...

[Tackhisis]

The Catalonians are weak. Their 'separatism' is just a useless fronde. Are they going to fight for their country like Kosovo and Donbass did? Are they ready to lose their family members, have their cities bombed, to die? Of course not. I see Spain is going to whip their milky asses and put them to the corner, and that is good.

[Frontenac]

My post is an answer you your irrelevant shit. The question is, what does your previous post have to do with anything? Anyway, next time when you think you are being clever, just remember the basic history of Americas .

What is relevent is that your government is doing far worse with the Kurds than what Madrid is doing with the Catalans. So it's not surprising that you would congratulate them.

[Karon]

It's not a sickness at all. It was an independence movement that created the US and I applaud any entity's rights to succession and independence. Whether it's Kurdistan, Somaliland, Western Sahara, Catalonia, Quebec, Palestine, etc.

Hell, I don't support (nor am I against) states succeeding from the Union, but if Texas wanted to declare itself a Republic, if California wanted to go it's own or if Hawaii wanted to reestablish its monarchy and declare itself a kingdom again, I would wish them good luck.

Thanks for bringing his point across.

[Kuntantee]

What is relevent is that your government is doing far worse with the Kurds than what Madrid is doing with the Catalans. So it's not surprising that you would congratulate them.

That's relevant neither to topic nor to my position towards Spain. And you magically excluded Armenians this time, clever boy you ;>

[Scooby Dooby Doo]

It's not. Seperationism is a sickness that has to be cured. The solution to today's world's problems is solidarity, not walls and borders.

You my friend have no idea how backwards and incompatible with our way of life half of the world is.

[Tierbook]

The Catalonians are weak. Their 'separatism' is just a useless fronde. Are they going to fight for their country like Kosovo and Donbass did? Are they ready to lose their family members, have their cities bombed, to die? Of course not. I see Spain is going to whip their milky asses and put them to the corner, and that is good.

The issue with that being that Catalonia is easily the wealthiest province (or whatever they call their divisions)...... Spain could bomb them but they'd go from being a wealthy region Spain needs to keep to stay relevant to being much poorer.

[Techno-Druid]

Thanks for bringing his point across.

Thanks for the nation bashing.

[Najnaj]

In general, or just in this particular case? I'm not really read on to the details of this one.

In general and not for any particular reason but rather that it is happening no matter what we think about it. We today have the means and opportunity to move about...so we will. Ability always did and always will crush ideology for basic stuff like this. The world is homogenizing and I don't really have any strong opinions on it in any direction...mainly because it would be pointless.

Separatism and anti immigration is a bit like a 2 year old arguing with his parents about going to bed. They can yell all they want but it will achieve nothing but make everyone annoyed with them.

[Frontenac]

Contrary to what is believed, independantist movements go hand in hand with globalization. Since the economy is less national, it is possible for small nations to have access to a greater market. So belonging to a greater nation-state becomes less relevent, and a small nation can live pretty well without the protection of Big Brother London, Paris, Madrid or Moscow. It is even more so within the EU. The stronger the european government will get, the weaker the bond to the local central government will get. A small nation, like Catalonia, Scotland, the Basques, the Flemmish or Corsica, could want to speak of its own in the European government or the United Nations. Note that both Catalonia and Scotland want to remain in the EU. If the EU gets an army, national conscience will get even stronger among those smaller nations.

[Mihalik]

We're called slurs, insulted for merely speaking our language and more.
Sorry for the long post, but being informed about things like this is critical to be able to form an opinion.

As an American living in Spain... Let's not pretend that the opposite isn't true as well. This is a question of which came first, chicken or the egg. In the current constitutional situation, the nationalist movement on Catalonia rests on 2 pillars. 1, an intense dislike of the rest of Spain, especially southern Spain, 2 an unwillingness to participate in the national economy and the illusion that independence would mean increased prosperity for the region.

What Primo Rivera and Franco did back in the 1920's to the 1950's is irrelevant in the post 1978 constitutional framework, especially now.

But, you do you man. The Catalonian independence movement has some sympathy for outside observers, but for someone actually living here (while having no stake in the thing) it really just seems like Catalonia throwing a stupid tantrum, literally dumber than Brexit, and the central government being finally fed up after years and years of appeasement.

[Karon]

Thanks for the nation bashing.

where did I bash a nation?

[Techno-Druid]

where did I bash a nation?

Sorry I might have misinterpreted your post then.

[Zecora]

Spain is just as dependant on Catalonia's earnings, as Catalonia's dependend on Spain in sales. 90% of the Catalonian sales are in Spain.

Comparing this to marriage is not a good way. Since catalonia's oposition covers a little over 50% of the votes, which reject the independent movement. How can you attribute the standing of an individual in marriage, to millions of individuals who have contradicting standings? Will you do like in the UK? Where 49% of the population was ignored and forced to go along with the Brexit?
In catalonia is worse. The secessionists have mayority in congress but not mayority in votes. So more than 4 million people inside catalonia will be ignored, because they themselves can't change how the weights of votes go because the secessionists have been winning that way for years.

My point stands, The Spanish government are idiots for taking the line they have taken, and the constitution that demands that every area agree before one can leave is undemocratic.

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Also, shouldn't this be in the "politics" subforum?

[unfilteredJW]

I know as an American I want my country to be more like Central America.

We've got the leader for it already.

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Yeah, I'm just fine having a border between my people, and people like North Korea, Russia, Iran, etc. No thanks on the sleep over.

The no border crowd is nuts.

Anything you take issue with politically tends to be a good thing.

When you fixing your sig? I know being honest here is not your forte, but it seems sad you are ok with parading your ignorance.

[Tijuana]

We've got the leader for it already.

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Anything you take issue with politically tends to be a good thing.

When you fixing your sig? I know being honest here is not your forte, but it seems sad you are ok with parading your ignorance.

What is wrong with my sig? There are factually no errors on it.

[Deleted]

Jesus Christ

Most likely didn't exist.

What i said is true. Several factions in spain have wished for separation. Be it the bascs, the galicia or the catalans. What is the point of a country where everyones hates each other guts? This is because the castellans conquered and subdued the others by force. The lingering resentment can still be felt today.
It's not cause a world cup was won that such resentments will leave. I advocate that every one of them should have their independance and choose to work in a union if they so wish.

Call for Jesus all you want, but you know that is what's fair for everyone. Trying to stop it by force has and will continue to result in conflict and continued resentment.

[Deleted]

Thank you! I'm actually not pro-Independence but I am for voting in a referendum. The thing is, our Generalitat has tried many times talking about changing our Constitution but they've always been rebuffed. At first we only wanted the privileges Euskadi already has (and that all other Autonomous Regions should have) but we we denied many times and things escalated from there, bringing tension from both sides.

I don't think this will escalate as far as to think about Civil War. There will be some violence, but I hope nothing more happens.

And it will keep being blocked: because Spain at large votes parties that don't want to change it. Even though the general sentiment, in Catalonia and elsewhere, is similar to yours: sympathetic to the idea of every region having the capacity to vote these kinds of referendums, even if they're not pro-secession.
The struggle to change it will be harder. Asking nicely doesn't work; arranging a referendum in contempt of the constitution doesn't work either; they actually need to find a nation-wide platform for regional self-determination. A platform that could be Podemos (/snort) if it didn't come with a thousand strings attached. But actually changing it would be contrary to the interest of any regular politician in Catalonia: they get more stuff, more appeasement, more privileges, by keeping the issue alive.

Naturally, Catalonia wants more privileges for itself. That's nice, sure. But the campaigning is transparently ridiculous: the historical "nationalities" are among the most privileged in the country yet they still manage to claim themselves the victims of oppression; historical oppression, no less. Because, apparently, the rest of the country didn't suffer their share of bullshit during Franco. With such crocodile tears, I'm not surprised that no one buys the rhetoric.

I forgot to mention that the Government is applying article 155 from our Constitution and they don't have the decency to announce it publicly.

They need the Senate's consent, so no: they're doing something else.
The measures Madrid is taking will probably get challenged in the constitutional at some point.

[ArguesWithStrangers]

In general and not for any particular reason but rather that it is happening no matter what we think about it. We today have the means and opportunity to move about...so we will. Ability always did and always will crush ideology for basic stuff like this. The world is homogenizing and I don't really have any strong opinions on it in any direction...mainly because it would be pointless.

Separatism and anti immigration is a bit like a 2 year old arguing with his parents about going to bed. They can yell all they want but it will achieve nothing but make everyone annoyed with them.

The facts don't support your argument. As I said to someone else earlier. There are over twice as many soverign nations now as there were in 1900. Economic globalization and the American hegemony are actually enabling smaller nation states to survive without the physical and economic protection of larger regional blocs.... sorry.