The nature of Light and Void (audio drama spoilers)

[KrakHed]

So perspective is very important (btw this dealing with perspective reminded me of the stormlight archive if you have not read it and you like fantasy i highly recommend it)

I don't think anyone is saying that the Light is evil, except someone who thinks in such absolute black and white that they believe the Light being able to be represented in evil form makes the whole thing evil. Which runs against the whole point of the story, doesn't it?

Completely rude an unnecessary intro aside, you bring up a good point. Maybe its inaccurate but according to the priest in shattrath love is an aspect of llthe light.

Basically it seems if that fact is true, that the light can see everything in its real and the void everything outside it. Xera couldnt see alleria using the void, and the void couldnt see the bond that is light aligned

I'm not sure love is entirely alien to the Void as a concept, but they probably have a pretty shallow conception of it. I think Old Gods have shown they know that people fear having their loved ones taken away, but plenty of people in Warcraft have been willing to kill and betray their loved ones. Love is probably just another "invisible chain" to them, or something they'd interpret more as an attachment to one's belongings. An Old God would probably still be angry if you killed or stole its favorite pet.

And that's the thing. In a world where people have betrayed everything they stood for, killed almost everyone they ever loved, or worse, the Void simply can't understand why Alleria would adamantly reject so many of their paths for the sake of a child she doesn't even know. Some people would kill their fathers for less, so the Void thinks anyone would do the same if given sufficient motive.

[huth]

Light
[...]
Its natural that most mortal races would be more inclined to the principles of the Light, since mortal societies cannot exist without some degree of order and stability - societies that trend towards chaos and disharmony turn upon and destroy themselves. The enduring principles of the Light are more inclined to create stability, and stability is more likely to aid survival. Hence, it makes sense that mortal races would see the Light as a force for 'good', since its attributes are what allow mortals to survive and prosper. From the point of view of mortals that wish to thrive, the Light is a force for good.


Void
[...]
Void, as a force of chaos and disharmony, would be poison to any lasting society - there would be no unity, no pulling together. Its natural that mortal societies would grow to shun it. However, Void would represent infinite potential to any individual willing to study and exploit it. The disenfranchised among societies might also come to see it as a path to power they do not possess, a means to change their lot in life, which could explain why organizations like the Twilight Cult or other Shadow/Void-worshiping cults are able to amass membership.

I think it's an overabundance of either that would kill a society. A total avoidance of the Void would mean a rigid, inflexible society unable to adapt to changes in the enviroment. It would die just as fast as one totally lacking any structure.

[Firann]

I like to think of the Light as Order (Lawful) and Void as Chaos, following the reasoning given by DnD. Below the DnD definition of Law and Order which I believe fits perfectly with Light and Chaos, following recent events with X'era and the audio drama.

Light (Order)
Law implies honor, trustworthiness, obedience to authority, and reliability. On the downside, lawfulness can include closed-mindedness, reactionary adherence to tradition, judgmentalness, and a lack of adaptability. Those who consciously promote lawfulness say that only lawful behavior creates a society in which people can depend on each other and make the right decisions in full confidence that others will act as they should.

Void (Chaos)
Chaos implies freedom, adaptability, and flexibility. On the downside, chaos can include recklessness, resentment toward legitimate authority, arbitrary actions, and irresponsibility. Those who promote chaotic behavior say that only unfettered personal freedom allows people to express themselves fully and lets society benefit from the potential that its individuals have within them

Good
Good implies altruism, respect for life, and a concern for the dignity of sentient beings. Good characters make personal sacrifices to help others.

Evil
Evil implies harming, oppressing, and killing others. Some evil creatures simply have no compassion for others and kill without qualms if doing so is convenient or if it can be set up. Others actively pursue evil, killing for sport or out of duty to some malevolent deity or master.

Neutral
People who are neutral with respect to good and evil have compunctions against killing the innocent but lack the commitment to make sacrifices to protect or help others. Neutral people are committed to others by personal relationships.

Taking it one step forward, one can think of Paladins as Lawful Good, where as player Rogues are Chaotic Good / Neutral. Warlocks are also Chaotic Neutral in my opinion.

[yuca247]

I don't think anyone is saying that the Light is evil...

Think again. Just in this thread and several others regarding the light and the void a lot of people have come to that conclusion and said so.

[KrakHed]

Think again. Just in this thread and several others regarding the light and the void a lot of people have come to that conclusion and said so.

Read the rest of the sentence. Someone who thinks the Light is evil is essentially guilty of the same idiotic black and white mindset that the narrative is telling us is false. There are certain "grey" elements to the Light. This doesn't make it black. It can and has been used for evil before, but it's most often used for good. We just can't forget that those evil usages are no less legitimate expressions of its power.

[Deleted]

Light - normies, caresucklings guzzling from binary teats

Void - pretty stallion with a cock ever throbbing. place where cool se-men wizards like me are born

[Golden Yak]

I think it's an overabundance of either that would kill a society. A total avoidance of the Void would mean a rigid, inflexible society unable to adapt to changes in the enviroment. It would die just as fast as one totally lacking any structure.

Yeah, good point, that was something I'd thought about earlier but neglected to write into my post. Taking any ideology to extremes is going to cause problems. Moderation is the key!

[Deleted]

Think again. Just in this thread and several others regarding the light and the void a lot of people have come to that conclusion and said so.

No one in this thread has been binary regarding the Light and the Void, quite the opposite.

What we have been discussing is that Blizzard finally defined what we knew since Vanilla WoW, that the Light and the Void simply are and there are evil Light users (like the Scarlet Crusaders) and the ground is set for good Void users. Because that's what the Warcraft Universe is, a Children of Light and Void.

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Taking it one step forward, one can think of Paladins as Lawful Good

Scarlet Crusade breaks that definition.

[ariz]

I actually logged on via my phone to tell you I thought this was a very well thought out and intriguing post. Keep it up.

As for me, I hope we see nzoth go off script and start using the light and void to fulfill his new agenda. And then we see the void lords try to destroy him somehow, maybe using the other old gods. Thought I hope Alleria does not try taking his place or become corrupted. I enjoy her character.

I would actually go on to add that Light vs Void also seems to be aligned with Self Sacrifice and selflessness vs Self preservation and growth.

Light constantly demands devotion from it's wielders that can be taken to the point of zealousness. But almost all light wielders possess selfless qualities (Priests and paladins devoting their time to help others). It might also explain why X'era was so obsessed with Illidan whose whole self-sacrifice mantra would have made him a perfect champion of light. The Valajar are infused with light upon sacrificing their lives in battle.The Naaru themselves constantly sacrifice themselves in order to protect others (K'aara, K'uure being some examples).

Void and the Old Gods have been described throughout various expansions and by various individuals as hungering, all-consuming, cancerous, parasites. The entire objective of the void is to preserve itself by any means necessary, hence Locus Walker's "Void sees all possibilities as being true" quote, which it does by consuming other beings. The Old Gods battle each other to be the first to consume the World Soul and even the Star Augur in NH as well as Herald Voljaz mention them as essentially being mindless and knowing only hunger. This is pretty consistent with how the Void came to be as a fledgling second power that had to grow at a fast rate in order to combat the already present Light. This is also consistent with many Shadow Priest's abilities relating to fear, most powerful emotion of self preservation, and how the most powerful Sha was the Sha of Pride, pride being essentially the love of oneself. It also explains why the Void can't comprehend love, being that it is an emotion born entirely out of selflessness and why the X'era was able to understand it within Alleria.

[Not Againnn]

i still still think sargeras and the legion will join us in fighting the void lords/light lords/whoever is evil

[Frontenac]

No one in this thread has been binary regarding the Light and the Void, quite the opposite.

What we have been discussing is that Blizzard finally defined what we knew since Vanilla WoW, that the Light and the Void simply are and there are evil Light users (like the Scarlet Crusaders) and the ground is set for good Void users. Because that's what the Warcraft Universe is, a Children of Light and Void.

- - - Updated - - -



Scarlet Crusade breaks that definition.

Good void users... As Michel Audiard said : "There are also flying fishes, but they do not constitute the majority of the kind."

Say what you want, what we know about the Light, even what we are learning in the audio drama, is far more aligned to Good, and what we are learning from the Void is screaming Evil all over the place. Considering all paths as true, and screw the implications on others, is pretty much the definition of Evil. The fact that some users of the Light, even the Naaru, can use it wrongly does not makes it any less good. And the fact that Alleria could, at least for a time, use the Void for good does not make the Void any less Evil.

[Firann]

Universe is, a Children of Light and Void.

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Scarlet Crusade breaks that definition.

I meant more in line with player Paladins but yes Scarlet Crusade is more of a Lawful Evil type of organization

[huth]

Good void users... As Michel Audiard said : "There are also flying fishes, but they do not constitute the majority of the kind."

Say what you want, what we know about the Light, even what we are learning in the audio drama, is far more aligned to Good, and what we are learning from the Void is screaming Evil all over the place. Considering all paths as true, and screw the implications on others, is pretty much the definition of Evil. The fact that some users of the Light, even the Naaru, can use it wrongly does not makes it any less good. And the fact that Alleria could, at least for a time, use the Void for good does not make the Void any less Evil.

No, the Light is not aligned with good, nor is it aligned with evil. The same is true for the Void. They're amoral forces. It is their users that are good or evil, not the forces themselves. They don't even understand the concept.

Ignoring the implications of your choices on others isn't evil. Picking choices based on how they negatively affect others is.

[KrakHed]

Ignoring the implications of your choices on others isn't evil.

Well, it can be. But that's the thing with the Cult of the Forgotten Shadow's morality in the RPG. It was all phrased in pragmatic terms of how respecting others helped you accomplish your own goals, and how things like rampant killing would call negative attention upon yourself and would leave you in a bad position. Unwarranted mercy would also be a bad thing, but you shouldn't do things that lead to others killing you for the sake of their own self-preservation.

And I think that's the only sort of morality a Void being would understand. A "good" Void entity would be educated from that perspective. The moral system it was taught would have to be explained in self-centered terms.

[huth]

Well, it can be. But that's the thing with the Cult of the Forgotten Shadow's morality in the RPG. It was all phrased in pragmatic terms of how respecting others helped you accomplish your own goals, and how things like rampant killing would call negative attention upon yourself and would leave you in a bad position. Unwarranted mercy would also be a bad thing, you shpouldn't do things that lead to others killing you for the sake of their own self-preservation.

It can be bad, but not evil. There is no concerted effort to harm others, in fact, ignoring what your choices do to others makes it impossible to make one, since you would have to pay attention to what your choices do to them to harm them on purpose.

[KrakHed]

It can be bad, but not evil. There is no concerted effort to harm others, in fact, ignoring what your choices do to others makes it impossible to make one, since you would have to pay attention to what your choices do to them to harm them on purpose.

No, it can be evil, but it's not evil for the sake of evil. They often show callous disregard or amusement at the suffering of others. That's pretty evil. However, the Shadows also whisper helpful secrets to the Arakkoa Outcasts, sheltering and hiding them from the Adherents of Rukhmar. One of their greetings is "Shadows smile upon you". I think it's equally possible for their attitude to lead to them helping others, but in an equally callous manner for their own amusement.

They see people resisting a stifling presence, and decide to make things more interesting by lending a hand. They get to enjoy spreading a rebellion, spreading chaos, even if it's for a noble cause this time around. They don't care that it's a noble cause, but even a noble cause can line up with their aims.

[huth]

No, it can be evil, but it's not evil for the sake of evil. They often show callous disregard or amusement at the suffering of others. That's pretty evil.

Which means they still pay attention to it, since they're focussing on negative consequences. Ignoring all consequences is different than only ignoring those that harm others.

[Deleted]

Good void users... As Michel Audiard said : "There are also flying fishes, but they do not constitute the majority of the kind."

Say what you want, what we know about the Light, even what we are learning in the audio drama, is far more aligned to Good, and what we are learning from the Void is screaming Evil all over the place. Considering all paths as true, and screw the implications on others, is pretty much the definition of Evil. The fact that some users of the Light, even the Naaru, can use it wrongly does not makes it any less good. And the fact that Alleria could, at least for a time, use the Void for good does not make the Void any less Evil.

Except that the Void isn't neither good nor evil. That's what Blizzard is building up, with a neutral character like the Locus-Walker and a good character like Alleria, it's opening up the field.

After all, without the Void, the Warcraft Universe wouldn't exist.

[Arrashi]

Except that the Void isn't neither good nor evil. That's what Blizzard is building up, with a neutral character like the Locus-Walker and a good character like Alleria, it's opening up the field.

After all, without the Void, the Warcraft Universe wouldn't exist.

We gonna see how long will they last. I give them 3 months into next expansion before we hear "MY POWEH" and "I WAS PROMISED !!!!"

[eScar95]

I'm gonna have to check out the audio books sometime soon. I'm missing out on so much lately it's frustrating.