Unrest in Spain: the Spanish government is taking control of the Catalan police force

[Mittens]

It's not. Seperationism is a sickness that has to be cured. The solution to today's world's problems is solidarity, not walls and borders.

Self-determination is not a disease.

[Collegeguy]

I don't have issue with open borders for continents. I think North America (counting Central America and Caribbean) should have open borders and we should be slightly more politically integrated.

I'm ok with this as long as Canada gets to go down with the sinking ship as well.

[GreenJesus]

It will be a socialist utopia, haven't you watched star trek? Jokes aside, noone living today will be able to witness it anyway. This will take another handfull of centuries, but with better logistics, education and communication tech it will happen naturally. Nationalism was the plague of the 19th and 20th century, and some people refuse to learn.

The only way to have "no borders" is for one country to conquer all the others. No one will give up their sovereignty willingly. It's one thing to be friendly with others, but a whole different beast to cede power over your own country.

[Wyrt]

Just let them have their damn vote. Trying to suppress them will only end in violence. But maybe that's what the Spanish government wants.

[Shandalar]

Most likely didn't exist.

What i said is true. Several factions in spain have wished for separation. Be it the bascs, the galicia or the catalans. What is the point of a country where everyones hates each other guts? This is because the castellans conquered and subdued the others by force. The lingering resentment can still be felt today.
It's not cause a world cup was won that such resentments will leave. I advocate that every one of them should have their independance and choose to work in a union if they so wish.

Call for Jesus all you want, but you know that is what's fair for everyone. Trying to stop it by force has and will continue to result in conflict and continued resentment.

U know exactly 0 about Spain and the Spaniards (Galicia looking for separation, lol; castellans conquering the others by force LOL), please stop.

[Akka]

Self-determination is not a disease.

It has blurry limits. I'm not entitled to self-decide that the patch of land I bought is suddenly another country.
A bunch of people isn't entitled to declare that the city they live in magically became a different nation.

A nation belongs to everyone that is part of it. A non-legitimate secessionist movement is basically stealing a part of the country from others. To be legitimate, the entire country has to agree.

[caervek]

Bad move by the Spanish government IMO, this will not just embitter the half of Catalonia who want independence but also the half who just want to exercise their democratic right to vote against it.

Fighting democracy you dislike with fascism is not the best way to go about this lol.

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A nation belongs to everyone that is part of it. A non-legitimate secessionist movement is basically stealing a part of the country from others. To be legitimate, the entire country has to agree.

So you think the USA is illegitimate? Try telling them that lol.

[Deleted]

Bad move by the Spanish government IMO, this will not just embitter the half of Catalonia who want independence but also the half who just want to exercise their democratic right to vote against it.

Fighting democracy you dislike with fascism is not the best way to go about this lol.

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So you think the USA is illegitimate? Try telling them that lol.

The thing is that is not about the right to vote, it is not a democracy process if the ones that are handeling the referemdum are the wants that want independence and put aside the political parties that also form the catalonian goverment that don´t share their views, it is not democratic if you force hundreds of goverment officials in the AC to do something illegal and then wash your hands if they go to jail, it is not democratic if you dont tell the citizens how the counting of the voting is going to be done or how will they validated it, it is not democratic if you don´t go to the spanish congress to propose the referemdum in a legal way upon the congress and the constitution wich Carles Puigdemont refuse to do early this year, it is not democratic to remove people in key official positions in the goverment and put only ones that affiliate to your party view, it is no democratic to not respect the division of powers and pretty much do whatever you want to do... the list really goes on and on and people could really open the shit bag and start flamimg Madrid´s goverment and Catalunia´s but it is not about that.

It´s about for example that I´m in for the referemdum (really, if it is done correctly)... but what is happening in Catalunia right know is far from being a fight for self-determination. The Spanish goverment is handeling the situation poorly but worse it could be if they didn´t do anything and its also far from being a fascist regime.

[Deleted]

The problem here is the continuous refusal of Castilians in accepting their own history.

Seriously, Spanish separatism exists since the very creation of the Kingdom of Spain. Even before that, when the first King of Portugal refused to accept his cousin as the "Imperator totius Hispaniae", Emperor of all the Spains.

[Akka]

So you think the USA is illegitimate? Try telling them that lol.

It certainly wasn't legitimate when it tried to get its independence. They managed to do it. Good for them. 230 years later, their legitimacy at the time is irrelevant.

[Deleted]

U know exactly 0 about Spain and the Spaniards (Galicia looking for separation, lol; castellans conquering the others by force LOL), please stop.

I think you are the one that knows nothing. I am guessing you are young, so obviously you don't.

[Shandalar]

I think you are the one that knows nothing. I am guessing you are young, so obviously you don't.

I am Spaniard.

U should begin to open books.

[Deleted]

I am Spaniard.

U should begin to open books.

Yet you obviously have been out of the loop. I'm portuguese, i know the history of the Iberic peninsula. You have obviously been sheltered. Very well... keep at it. Hurts you more than me.

At least we got out of that mess pretty quick. You enjoy your wars.

[Haven]

Democracy in action. "Your referendums mean nothing, we have the brute force to shut you up". Also, how long before they find Russian influence and long hand of the Kremlin in it?

[Mihalik]

Economic globalization and the American hegemony are actually enabling smaller nation states to survive without the physical and economic protection of larger regional blocs.... sorry.

That is misunderstanding the situation. Western military hegemony (NATO nations not fighting among themselves or enter arms races) combined with the creation of supranational governing bodies like ASEAN, CARICOM, SICA, EU (of which the EU is the only one that is democratically governed) is what allows smaller nations to survive "independently".

Not to mention more than third of the so called "sovereign nations" that exist do so in political unions with larger nations where their larger partners decide on matters related to defense, foreign policy and to a large degree financial policy.

Then there is an entire subset of nations that are nominally sovereign but are in reality proxies of another country, notable examples being nations like Belarus or Kazakhstan.

[caervek]

The thing is that is not about the right to vote

That's not what the Catalans say, from all the interviews it seems this crackdown has made those in favour of independence even more steadfast and those opposed to it less enamoured with the Spanish government because despite being against independence they wanted the right to vote on the issue.

[ArguesWithStrangers]

That is misunderstanding the situation. Western military hegemony (NATO nations not fighting among themselves or enter arms races) combined with the creation of supranational governing bodies like ASEAN, CARICOM, SICA, EU (of which the EU is the only one that is democratically governed) is what allows smaller nations to survive "independently".

Western military hegemony is American military hegemony. It's not the EU or even NATO for that matter that is keeping ambitious regional powers in their boxes, the shipping lanes open and trade humming. They provide assistance, and it is appreciated, but the US military, the NAVY in particular, is the linchpin that allows this global economy to exist. We built the UN, NATO, the WTO, all of it. We bankrolled it, and protected it, and gave it real power. I know this probably comes off as arrogant or overly simplistic, but try to imagine any one of these organizations if say, France, or Germany, or Italy pulled out. It would hurt to be sure, but they would continue on, and adapt in short order. Now remove the US, the whole thing falls apart instantly.

You have a very low standard for considering a supranational organizaion as preeminent over their soveriegn states. Of these associations, the EU is by far the most integrated, and even the EU lacks the power to keep its member states in the fold (brexit) or obeying mandates from Brussels (Poland).

Not to mention more than third of the so called "sovereign nations" that exist do so in political unions with larger nations where their larger partners decide on matters related to defense, foreign policy and to a large degree financial policy.

Do you have a source to back this up? I'm not saying you're lying, that number just seems really high. I think you might be using loose criteria.

Then there is an entire subset of nations that are nominally sovereign but are in reality proxies of another country, notable examples being nations like Belarus or Kazakhstan.

There were in 1900 too. This has always been the case. The comparison remains valid.

[yetgdhfgh]

We looking at Spanish Civil war Part 2?

[Hiricine]

The less people a government is in charge of, generally the better. This includes if you're being ruled by one king or if you're being ruled by 50%+1 kings.

People generally don't want separatism because they want the free stuff from the people trying to separate. Its never about "unity" or "patriotism" and its always about politicians that cling to power and the people getting free stuff from them that want to keep sucking like leeches that enable those politicians.

Of course if I can speculate, Catalan exists on a pretty geographically valuable coastline, on a major road that connects to the South of France and generally access to the rest of Europe. Spain at large is worried that it would lose access to those ports etc and be at the mercy of an independent government controlling that territory.

[Mihalik]

Western military hegemony is American military hegemony. It's not the EU or even NATO for that matter that is keeping ambitious regional powers in their boxes, the shipping lanes open and trade humming. They provide assistance, and it is appreciated, but the US military, the NAVY in particular, is the linchpin that allows this global economy to exist. We built the UN, NATO, the WTO, all of it. We bankrolled it, and protected it, and gave it real power. I know this probably comes off as arrogant or overly simplistic, but try to imagine any one of these organizations if say, France, or Germany, or Italy pulled out. It would hurt to be sure, but they would continue on, and adapt in short order. Now remove the US, the whole thing falls apart instantly.

The point I was trying to make is that the nature of the relationship is such that nations with the means to compete militarily do not need to. It's worth pointing out that one of the largest geopolitical rival of the US is Russia...whose economy is smaller than that of Italy. Not every nation like Italy, France, Germany can dispute US interests globally, but they sure as fuck can turn much of the world into a regional pissing contest. It's important to remember that much of the US power rests on the fact that it is beneficial to its partners, which incidentally also happen to be the richest and most powerful nations in the world.

That's why for example an "America first" foreign policy is so dangerous, because it threatens the established power balance.

You have a very low standard for considering a supranational organizaion as preeminent over their soveriegn states. Of these associations, the EU is by far the most integrated, and even the EU lacks the power to keep its member states in the fold (brexit) or obeying mandates from Brussels (Poland).

We aren't discussing the minutia of governance or internal political disputes, but rather what enables those small nations to prosper economically in cooperation with nations that otherwise could be rivals. Integration has been the name of the game for decades now.

Do you have a source to back this up? I'm not saying you're lying, that number just seems really high. I think you might be using loose criteria.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Associated_state
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crown_dependencies

Then you have oddball nations like Greenland, Lesotho, Tokelau, Abkhazia, Taiwan and Palestine. There isn't a comprehensive list that would cover all the whackado categories.