Unrest in Spain: the Spanish government is taking control of the Catalan police force

[Crispin]

Which is a shame imo.

Why? The majority does not support it, the last thing Europe needs it another "We'll throw 350billion at healthcare if independence!" campaign.

[Mihalik]

We looking at Spanish Civil war Part 2?

No.

Catalonia is a region of 7 million, about half or so (estimated) are in favor of independence, but it's more like an armchair "in favor", their biggest protest drew about 40000 people.

It will be a protracted legal and public relationships battle with some protests here and there.

[Fonduset]

The Spanish Government are spooked that it might actually happen. They would lose so much money from Catalan tourism, farming and wine, they are doing everything they can to stop the vote happening. Which might backfire as it could prompt the people who would vote remain, to vote leave out of principal.

[yetgdhfgh]

No.

Catalonia is a region of 7 million, about half or so (estimated) are in favor of independence, but it's more like an armchair "in favor", their biggest protest drew about 40000 people.

It will be a protracted legal and public relationships battle with some protests here and there.

Well wasn't Spain in a pseudo Civil war with the Basque regions? Wont these clamp downs encourage and maybe spawn a Catalonia version of ETA?

[Aega]

It will take many centuries for the homo sapiens to develop worldwide to a common denominator that would make most of the freedom discussed here, possible. At this stage, with big chunks of peoples still living by XII-th century morals, ethics and values, it's a moot argument. Something like a good massage to a wooden prosthetic leg: does not help or harm, may add some shine.

[Mihalik]

Of course if I can speculate, Catalan exists on a pretty geographically valuable coastline, on a major road that connects to the South of France and generally access to the rest of Europe. Spain at large is worried that it would lose access to those ports etc and be at the mercy of an independent government controlling that territory.

Yes and no. The largest Mediterranean port of Spain is the Port of Valencia, which is further down south. There are 2 major rail connections to France, Irun-San Sebastian in the Basque Country and Figueres in Catalonia.

The issue economically speaking is that Catalonia is one of the two most prosperous Communities (Autonomous Administrative Regions) on par with Madrid. Madrid and Catalonia combined make up about 30% of the population but around half the GDP of the country, evenly split. Especially over the past few decades Spain invested HEAVILY in the economic development of Catalonia. Back in the 1980's Barcelona experienced a sharp decline, much of its recovery was owed to the 1992 Olympics that seen heavy investment in the region and brought the City and the region into international spotlight, turning it into a major hotspot for tourism and investment.

Also further development was poured into infrastructure to connect it with Madrid and the rest of Mediterranean coast. So while Catalonia can take a lot of pride in its economy and on the progress they made on their own, other regions of the country which haven't demanded as much attention and autonomy from the central government received substantially less investment over the past couple of decades.

Catalonia is also completely integrated into the Spanish state in areas like transportation, power generation, distribution and management, water management, agriculture, telecommunications and so on.

While the Catalan nationalists LOVE to talk about fiscal independence and always look for ways to pay less into the national budget and the ability to ignore imposed debt limits, they never addressed the minutiae of a functioning infrastructure all of sudden torn out of the national network, simply assuming that things will carry on as normal.

A lot of the "recent" flare up of nationalist chest beating started rolling again when Madrid imposed stricter fiscal controls on regional borrowing and spending in the wake of the 2008 economic downturn, as the regional healthcare system among other things started experiencing shortages and funding problems all of the sudden regional politicians turned up rhetoric on independence claiming that more autonomy for Catalonia would magically fix their budgetary problems.

In hindsight the measures take by the central government worked, even if they were painful, and the economy recovered, as Spain's economy is growing fast, exports have risen substantially, the economy is more diversified and competitive and unemployment is dropping (the national rate is still very high, but in regions like Madrid and Barcelona they are in the 4 to 5% ranges).

But you know, once you started the fire...

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Well wasn't Spain in a pseudo Civil war with the Basque regions? Wont these clamp downs encourage and maybe spawn a Catalonia version of ETA?

No. Catalan nationalism and the relationship with the rest of the country is different. ETA was a product of its time (the age of groups like the IRA and the Red Brigades) and its philosophical foundations were also absolutely whack. Basque nationalism is largely based on the scribblings of a loon called Sabino Arana, who literally thought Basques were a different race to Spaniards and they were inherently racially superior to other Spaniards and was obsessed with the "Blood Purity" of Basques.

[yetgdhfgh]

No. Catalan nationalism and the relationship with the rest of the country is different. ETA was a product of its time (the age of groups like the IRA and the Red Brigades) and its philosophical foundations were also absolutely whack. Basque nationalism is largely based on the scribblings of a loon called Sabino Arana, who literally thought Basques were a different race to Spaniards and they were inherently racially superior to other Spaniards and was obsessed with the "Blood Purity" of Basques.

I see also i have learnt something new today

I always just thought the Basques was just another breakaway province and i think i need to look up more into this cause this is interesting to me as a history buff.

As for my own personal opinion i have no horse in this race so what ever the Spanish people feel is the right course for them then its alright by me.

[Hiricine]

Yes and no. The largest Mediterranean port of Spain is the Port of Valencia, which is further down south. There are 2 major rail connections to France, Irun-San Sebastian in the Basque Country and Figueres in Catalonia.
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Cut down for brevity. Probably the most informative post in the entire thread.

[Deleted]

The Spanish government reportedly stationed 5000 police officers on stand by in the region (on 3 ferry's in the harbour) in case they feeld the need to act when they still try to hold a referendum.

[cparle87]

Just let them have their damn vote. Trying to suppress them will only end in violence. But maybe that's what the Spanish government wants.

The point is the only vote that would be legal would include everyone in Spain voting. The secessionists know they wouldn't stand a chance of winning that. So they're trying to call for a vote that would include only Catalonia, which isn't lawful. And even if it was, the most recent polls show a slight majority in favor of remaining. It's only the Catalonian government who want to secede, not even the majority of its people.

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Fighting democracy you dislike with fascism is not the best way to go about this lol.

Is it democracy they're fighting when less than half of them want it? It's their government who are after it. It's like if California's state government wanted to secede from the Union, there was a referrendum, the majority voted no, but the state government said 'eh we'll go with it anyway.'

[caervek]

Is it democracy they're fighting when less than half of them want it?

You're confusing the referendum with independence. Catalans are split on whether they should be independent or not, however almost all of them want the opportunity to have their say on it. Many of the pro-referendum campaigners/protesters are actually anti-independance.

[Mihalik]

The Spanish government reportedly stationed 5000 police officers on stand by in the region (on 3 ferry's in the harbour) in case they feeld the need to act when they still try to hold a referendum.

It has to do with the fact the regional police literally refuses to apply the law and court orders or to back up the national police. Madrid has also taken control of the payment of public servants, including the police. So if they continue to refuse to apply the law they won't paid basically.

[Deianeira]

Doesent matter to international law. Every region of the world has the same right to self determination since the end of World War 2. I dont know if you realize this, but sovereign states is always increasing, Spain is not about to stop this. Constitution doesent trump a region right to self determination, ask the Americans. The only thing a constitution does is that if it wont change to let a region make a constitutional independence, they will make independence in another way. Madrid does not get to ignore the right to self determination of any of its region, just because it wants to. They wont have international support for this either. Constitution doesent do shit here, the only thing Madrid can actually do is hold the region by force like China would.

So the American government would have nothing to say about it, if a state was to want to break away from the union?

[Mihalik]

The point is the only vote that would be legal would include everyone in Spain voting. The secessionists know they wouldn't stand a chance of winning that. So they're trying to call for a vote that would include only Catalonia, which isn't lawful. And even if it was, the most recent polls show a slight majority in favor of remaining. It's only the Catalonian government who want to secede, not even the majority of its people.

Technically speaking I understand the argument that the people who want independence (better said the region) should be the only ones voting for it. It is the same logic as in the English not getting a vote in the Scottish referendum, or the Dutch in the Greenland one and how Germans and Poles didn't get a vote in Brexit.

Although the Catalan government's way of going about is not helpful. From the get go it has been an "We get what we want or else INDEPENDENCE" attitude, instead of a dialogue about constitutional reform that would have allowed such a regional referendum they went about and unilaterally redefined their status within the nation under a 2006 referendum, without consulting the rest of the country on the matter.

It's hard to blame the Spanish government for being hostile in this situation considering that Catalonia isn't exactly helpful or considerate of the rest of the country.

[Flurryfang]

While i don't support it, i understand why Spain is doing it. Catalan is the richest region in the country and holds up alot of spain. It moving away would make it worse for spain and it might come to conflict between the two "new" nations. While this is done to protect Spain from losing a big part of its income, it is also to protect Catalan. If they leave, the spanish population might feel like the people of Catalan are deserting them and it can lead to fights in which the Catalan people would lose.


Stability is overall the most important thing. If Catalan could leave while keeping the stability of Spain, it would proberly be allowed because of outside pressure on Spain, but if that can't happend, i understand why Spain might repress a seperation or referendum.

[Mihalik]

Spain was never a union. Several groups were conquered and subdued. There is no nationalism under the spanish flag. Rather than force it, it's best to let everyone have their own corner. For union to happen, the sides have to come together by their own will, not by force.

That's not how it works. Spain has been A SINGULAR NATION at least since 1469 for all intents and purposes. The internal political dynamics and the competing regional interests are a different question, but Spain has been a united country for at least 550 years. That's a longer history for a unitary nation than most European countries can claim.

Neither is the Spanish situation unique in Europe. The United Kingdom, Belgium, The Netherlands are just some multi ethnic states I can think of of the top of my head.

Whatever the internal political disagreements might be, the Balkanization of western Europe over petty squabbles related to language and how much debt an autonomous region can accrue is fucking silly.

[cparle87]

You're confusing the referendum with independence. Catalans are split on whether they should be independent or not, however almost all of them want the opportunity to have their say on it. Many of the pro-referendum campaigners/protesters are actually anti-independance.

So they've had a poll, more than half of them want to stay, less than half of them want to go. But both sides want an official referendum that'll say the exact same thing, because reasons?

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Technically speaking I understand the argument that the people who want independence (better said the region) should be the only ones voting for it. It is the same logic as in the English not getting a vote in the Scottish referendum, or the Dutch in the Greenland one and how Germans and Poles didn't get a vote in Brexit.

Although the Catalan government's way of going about is not helpful. From the get go it has been an "We get what we want or else INDEPENDENCE" attitude, instead of a dialogue about constitutional reform that would have allowed such a regional referendum they went about and unilaterally redefined their status within the nation under a 2006 referendum, without consulting the rest of the country on the matter.

It's hard to blame the Spanish government for being hostile in this situation considering that Catalonia isn't exactly helpful or considerate of the rest of the country.

Well, someone posted earlier in the thread that in Spain's constitution it was decreed that matters such as those were to be determined by Spaniards as a whole. I get that it's the biggest deal to people from that region, but since it affects all of Spain they should vote on it too.

[Wyrt]

The point is the only vote that would be legal would include everyone in Spain voting. The secessionists know they wouldn't stand a chance of winning that. So they're trying to call for a vote that would include only Catalonia, which isn't lawful. And even if it was, the most recent polls show a slight majority in favor of remaining. It's only the Catalonian government who want to secede, not even the majority of its

Then let them have their vote and have the majority vote to remain. Seems simple way to end it. And if the local government kept doing it after the people voted no then have the federal government put their boot down.

[cparle87]

Technically speaking I understand the argument that the people who want independence (better said the region) should be the only ones voting for it. It is the same logic as in the English not getting a vote in the Scottish referendum, or the Dutch in the Greenland one and how Germans and Poles didn't get a vote in Brexit.

Although the Catalan government's way of going about is not helpful. From the get go it has been an "We get what we want or else INDEPENDENCE" attitude, instead of a dialogue about constitutional reform that would have allowed such a regional referendum they went about and unilaterally redefined their status within the nation under a 2006 referendum, without consulting the rest of the country on the matter.

It's hard to blame the Spanish government for being hostile in this situation considering that Catalonia isn't exactly helpful or considerate of the rest of the country.

Well put. That's how I see it as well.

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Then let them have their vote and have the majority vote to remain. Seems simple way to end it. And if the local government kept doing it after the people voted no then have the federal government put their boot down.

The thing is the secessionists won't call for a vote like that because, as we both said, they know they'd lose. So they're demanding to exclude as many people that they feel won't vote in favor of secession as possible.

[Zoibert the Bear]

I still find amazing how the Catalans go for the "We want democracy" catchphrase when the very basis of this referendum is completely undemocratic.

Cataluña is part of Spain as of now, and thus, adheres to it's constitution which states that any Referendum that affects all Spaniards must also let every Spaniard vote, and not just the Catalans. The Catalan government has been given too much authority over spending and has basically indoctrinated a whole generation of young Catalans (who have very Spanish roots) into hating Spain as a whole.

The whole situation is completely retarded, they have had independence polls and votes for years on, until they get the result that a few want. They just hit a moment in time in which public unrest is quite high due to a poor central government.

You can't tell the law to fuck off and then expect to not be punished. Millions of euros have been spent on pro-independence propaganda, money that comes from SPANISH taxpayers.