Battle for Azeroth Alpha/Beta General Discussion

[Ningjinq]

Its an illusion. As you go on to mention later about one of 3 mounts. The rate isn't improved the amount of chances you have per box to get an item are improved. Instead of 1 chance of 1% Its 3 chances of 1%.

Is the chance still that low from army of the light paragon boxes to get a single item? From what I read it was pretty high.

Anyways, I think that's something that will differ by person, and particular item in question. "How important is a specific recolor vs being happy to just have any?"

Now, whether or not that's healthy for the playerbase, idk. For me the answer to that question generally is, it depends on the item.

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How do you not see anything wrong with reps that no longer reward a mount at Exalted?

You literally have to get exalted twice to get a 1% chance at getting the mount from an RNG lootbox. One of the mounts - Valajar. Isn't even available anywhere else in game except by being a GLADIATOR level player in a game thats PvP is dead.

Ahem, that would be the warrior's true class mount tyvm.

[Paula Deen]

Is the chance still that low from army of the light paragon boxes to get a single item? From what I read it was pretty high.

Anyways, I think that's something that will differ by person, and particular item in question. "How important is a specific recolor vs being happy to just have any?"

Now, whether or not that's healthy for the playerbase, idk. For me the answer to that question generally is, it depends on the item.

I admit I do not know the drop rate, but the drop rate itself is also an illusion. If the drop rate is 50% that is a 50% chance per box to get 1 of 3 items. What happens when you are missing 1? Missing 2? You still keep opening them until you get the last lucky find. Its a game where NO MATTER WHAT the player loses. Its disgusting tbh.

[Ningjinq]

Its an illusion. As you go on to mention later about one of 3 mounts. The rate isn't improved the amount of chances you have per box to get an item are improved. Instead of 1 chance of 1% Its 3 chances of 1%.

Are those still a very low drop chance? Was under the impression from reading comments it was much higher now.

Anyways, that i think is something that is going to vary by player and item. "Are you content with a single recolor of a certain item or do you need a very specific one?"

[Paula Deen]

Relatedly to RNG and 8.0, I still am having a hard time theorizing what their solution is to titanforging making new raid fight kills feel unrewarding. Sounds like TF is sticking around so it'll have to be something creative.

Titanforging is fine with reforging included.
Random Gem Sockets are fine. If we have reforging.
Even the RNG Legendaries are fine. IF WE HAVE REFORGING.

Seems to be a common thing here that fixes the problems while allowing them to still develop the game like they are a bad doctor operating on a tumor.

Are those still a very low drop chance? Was under the impression from reading comments it was much higher now.

Anyways, that i think is something that is going to vary by player and item. "Are you content with a single recolor of a certain item or do you need a very specific one?"

It was a poor example. It is most def higher. The thing is, you still lose. 3 50% chances per box to get a mount, for example. What happens when you get 1? You still have a chance to get the one you just got. Meaning you still have a chance to lose even when you are winning. ISN'T GAMBLING FUN?!?!?!?!?!

[Ningjinq]

How do you not see anything wrong with reps that no longer reward a mount at Exalted?

You literally have to get exalted twice to get a 1% chance at getting the mount from an RNG lootbox. One of the mounts - Valajar. Isn't even available anywhere else in game except by being a GLADIATOR level player in a game thats PvP is dead.



Lmao. Don't start the legendary debate.

Sigh... Legion could have been great. So many mistakes.

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The problem is this.

Blizzard didn't just add an asinine amount of RNG to the game.

They also removed all forms of other progression and control.

It was a double whammy. Remove reforging and point/token systems and make absolutely everything Random.

Imagine if Billy got a 955 TF item. Billy can't upgrade his item.

Now imagine Paula Deen got a 935 normal iLevel item. Paula is pissed. But lucky Paula has Valor points built up and is allowed to upgrade her item by 5 iLevels twice. Now Paulas item is 945. It's still not as good as little Billy's. But at least it isn't SO GOD DAMN BAD.

^Why was that removed?

The "Time Played" metric.

Yes. I understand it's a problem, I'm more interested by them saying it is a problem but still want to keep TF. I'm not saying "I am 1000% confident they'll fix it." Just that I'm sure they'll attempt to have their cake and eat it too. Want to see what they come up with.

Your solution wouldn't actually solve the problem of: I obtain a 955 piece of tier on heroic. It's enjoyable. But then you go to progress on that boss on mythic and suddenly there's not as much motivation there as you already have your best piece of loot despite not killing it yet.

That's a problem, Blizzard admits it's a problem, now what will they do to fix it?

[Hitei]

ISN'T GAMBLING FUN?!?!?!?!?!

Yes. Hence why we've been doing it for 3,000+ years.

Boohoo, a few mounts in the expansion overflowing with mounts that throws free mounts at you are RNG based.

[Paula Deen]

Yes. Hence why we've been doing it for 3,000+ years.

Boohoo, a few mounts in the expansion overflowing with mounts that throws free mounts at you are RNG based.

Overflowing with RAID mounts you mean? About the only thing I have liked about the unlockables this expansion is the artifact skins. You put in work, you get a reward for the effort. Its universal too. The PvP Nerd gets skins unique to him. The Miffic Waider gets his shit. The Mythic+ Spammer get his. The Profession Farmer even gets his. The Altholic is rewarded too!

Why can't all the rewards be like that instead of RNG? Oh right because if there isn't RNG no one would play this shit post launch because instead of including meaningful stories and heartfelt reputation questlines we get rehashed broken shore and scrapped expansion concepts.

We can disagree on opinions, that's fine, but you are outright wrong here. This is gambling that is unnecessary. Plain and Simple.

[Ningjinq]

Titanforging is fine with reforging included.
Random Gem Sockets are fine. If we have reforging.
Even the RNG Legendaries are fine. IF WE HAVE REFORGING.

Seems to be a common thing here that fixes the problems while allowing them to still develop the game like they are a bad doctor operating on a tumor.


It was a poor example. It is most def higher. The thing is, you still lose. 3 50% chances per box to get a mount, for example. What happens when you get 1? You still have a chance to get the one you just got. Meaning you still have a chance to lose even when you are winning. ISN'T GAMBLING FUN?!?!?!?!?!

I am not btw disagreeing with anything you are saying. Is that how it works now though? I know there are certain mounts since modern PL was added in WoD that you cannot get duplicates for. 99% sure all mounts that can drop from timewalking you cannot get if you already have it. (Which in a sense is unfortunate as you can't form farming groups for it).

How math actually works on that I don't believe can be figured for a certainty however. (Eg, when you get a mana ray mount does the chance of getting a specific other one go up or does it just give you more chances to get spoiled egg?)

[Paula Deen]

I am not btw disagreeing with anything you are saying. Is that how it works now though? I know there are certain mounts since modern PL was added in WoD that you cannot get duplicates for. 99% sure all mounts that can drop from timewalking you cannot get if you already have it. (Which in a sense is unfortunate as you can't form farming groups for it).

How math actually works on that I don't believe can be figured for a certainty however. (Eg, when you get a mana ray mount does the chance of getting a specific other one go up or does it just give you more chances to get spoiled egg?)

I don't work for Blizzard, after the 'Legendary Forgiveness Timer' I would take anything they say about pity timers as a croc of shit personally.

[Ningjinq]

Yes. Hence why we've been doing it for 3,000+ years.

Boohoo, a few mounts in the expansion overflowing with mounts that throws free mounts at you are RNG based.

It's not really about raid mounts. Relatively speaking, those rarely get complained about for many reasons (a large reason likely is because you only have to do it once a week so the effort even possible is low). The problem is, they added rng to collecting where none existed before. Very low chance rng at that.

[rda]

Yes. I understand it's a problem, I'm more interested by them saying it is a problem but still want to keep TF. I'm not saying "I am 1000% confident they'll fix it." Just that I'm sure they'll attempt to have their cake and eat it too. Want to see what they come up with.

Your solution wouldn't actually solve the problem of: I obtain a 955 piece of tier on heroic. It's enjoyable. But then you go to progress on that boss on mythic and suddenly there's not as much motivation there as you already have your best piece of loot despite not killing it yet.

That's a problem, Blizzard admits it's a problem, now what will they do to fix it?

Them "admitting" that this is a problem does not mean what you think it means. They aren't admitting that there is too much RNG. They would have liked to be more RNG, not less. What they are admitting is that the RNG is too crude and too in your face and so the players are opposing it too much and it is this that is a problem. What they are looking for is means to make it less in your face and less apparent.

Also, yes, they are going for the time played metric, but in the end it is just a proxy to time paid. We have this BS because we are paying per-month. They are optimizing for how they are charging. If WoW was F2P, for example, they would have optimized differently and, say, make 4 "expansions" per year, each the scale of 7.1 = the HS model. Grinds would still exist, but the emphasis would have been elsewhere. And while yes, "they are a business" bla bla bla, the point is that this is no longer a fun game that also makes money, it is a money-making grinding machine with psychological hooks to tie you to it which is maybe fun 3-4 hours per year, if that.

[Ningjinq]

If we're going on with more things people would like to see fixed, what I'm occasionally curious about is world design. What's the balance between designing a zone as you'd expect it to look and how it actually plays for players? For instance, Stormheim is mountainous and hard to get around as you'd expect of a zone based on Scandinavia. Same with Broken Shore and 2/3 of Argus. It's supposed to be nearly destroyed as a landscape. But those become very frustrating for players. So what's the solution there?

[Hitei]

Overflowing with RAID mounts you mean? About the only thing I have liked about the unlockables this expansion is the artifact skins. You put in work, you get a reward for the effort. Its universal too. The PvP Nerd gets skins unique to him. The Miffic Waider gets his shit. The Mythic+ Spammer get his. The Profession Farmer even gets his. The Altholic is rewarded too!

Why can't all the rewards be like that instead of RNG? Oh right because if there isn't RNG no one would play this shit post launch because instead of including meaningful stories and heartfelt reputation questlines we get rehashed broken shore and scrapped expansion concepts.

We can disagree on opinions, that's fine, but you are outright wrong here. This is gambling that is unnecessary. Plain and Simple.

The two profession mounts are raids mounts? Eche'ro is a raid mount? The prowler? The riddle mounts? The class mounts? the gold mount, pet mounts, timewalking mounts, fathom dweller, Kara mounts, hippogryph? Manasaber? The fishing mount, sewers mount, Argus rep mounts, and rays?

Wow there were a lot of raid mounts in Legion.

"wrong" only works in situations with objective facts. "I don't want RNG" does not mean "RNG is incorrect".

[rda]

"I don't want RNG" does not mean "RNG is incorrect".

It does. The proof is in the numbers. Are players coming to Legion or are they leaving Legion? They are leaving big time. Legion is likely going to lose at least a third of the players during its course, quite possibly more. The end.

[Ningjinq]

Will literally spout anything to defend it.

"Throwing mounts at you?" What in the hell?

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Most of the hidden skins are RNG too.

Mage Tower skins are probably the only thing in this expansion I would deem to be a fair reward for effort put in.

Everything else is random and requires god awful mounts of grind.


What exactly did Argus add that isn't a complete rehash of The Broken Shore? Nothing. Nothing except sub 3 hatours worth of story questing.

Load it up to the brim with RNG and call it a day.

At least by now they removed just about as much of the rng as possible of the hidden skins in 7.3.

Argus v Broken Shore: personally I find most of the WQs themselves less tedious. Light forged War Machine amazing for questing too. Feels good to 1 shot everything a mile around. Mac'aree is a nice visual change and is sooo easy to get around.

My only real complaint about Argus (bar the rewards), is Antoran Wastes is just awful terrain and has only 2 beacons a day combined with gated flight whistle. I'm fine with gating more than most but what's with that?

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Barring any mini raid added with a mount, Legion will have 8-9 dungeon/raid mounts (depending on if you consider the Violet Wing a raid mount since it's not rng, drops for everyone so no grinding or achievement work)

[Hitei]

"Throwing mounts at you?" What in the hell?

Get a free mount for doing missions and a short quest.
Get a free mount for playing your class.
Get a mount for doing a few archaeology quests.
Get mounts for killing common rares on Argus.
Get a mount for following a guide on the internet to complete riddles, like 99.999999% of people do.
Get a mount for standing around Darkmoon Isle and fishing.
Get a mount for throwing money at a vendor.
Get mounts by doing your profession.

It does. The proof is in the numbers. Are players coming to Legion or are they leaving Legion? They are leaving big time. Legion is likely going to lose at least a third of the players during its course, quite possibly more. The end.

Cool. Now go ahead and provide actual evidence that this is due to RNG. Oh wait, you don't have any.
Reforging was added in Cata and followed by modified valor and upgrade systems. I guess that protection against RNG is why subs went up during the length of Cata and Mop, right? Oh...

Players left during early Cata, I guess that means "I think dungeons should be challenging and tuned very high for intro gear levels" is a "wrong" statement.

[rda]

Cool. Now go ahead and provide actual evidence that this is due to RNG. Oh wait, you don't have any.

RNG is part of the reason, the full reason is that there is little interesting content and instead there are tons of numeric modifiers for existing content plus heavy RNG - these two things are supposed to keep you occupied, but this doesn't really work and people quickly go numb and quit.

If there was a lot of RNG and also a lot of interesting content, it would have been different. But RNG and multi-step stairs like mythic+ are there to mask the fact that there is little content, this is why they don't work.

[Ningjinq]

If we go by traditional "lower tier mounts that are easy to get" like Cranes from MoP. Legion had none at launch, class mounts you could stretch to fill that requirement. (Traditional rep mounts still took awhile to get).

None were added till the Argussian Reach Talbuks. And close by are possibly the Elekks from army of light.

You could stretch it further and say the LW moose was "easy" to get as it is grindable but that's a stretch.

Tl;dr, there was no "traditional random creatures of new xpac as mounts that are non-flashy and easy to get." And when they finallly added them with paragon reps, the grind is worse than many other mount grinds.

[Hitei]

RNG is part of the reason, the full reason is that there is little interesting content and instead there are tons of numeric modifiers for existing content plus heavy RNG - these two things are supposed to keep you occupied, but this doesn't really work and people quickly go numb and quit.

So, no evidence then? Just assumptions that support your narrative?

If we go by traditional "lower tier mounts that are easy to get" like Cranes from MoP. Legion had none at launch, class mounts you could stretch to fill that requirement. (Traditional rep mounts still took awhile to get).

None were added till the Argussian Reach Talbuks. And close by are possibly the Elekks from army of light.

You could stretch it further and say the LW moose was "easy" to get as it is grindable but that's a stretch.

Tl;dr, there was no "traditional random creatures of new xpac as mounts that are non-flashy and easy to get." And when they finallly added them with paragon reps, the grind is worse than many other mount grinds.

The prowler wasn't easy to get?

[Ningjinq]

Regardless of how you count mounts, id venture to say, very few had Legion mounts before class mounts because while people like mounts, idk if many go that far out of the way to get them and/or are aware of some of the obscure ones like the ghost moose.