Why is the abortion debate framed as pro-choice vs pro-life?

[Baelic]

Im glad this debate been over since the 80s, in normal countries that is.

And it will continue, so long as society thinks of Women as objects and/or baby factories.

[Fencers]

Genuine question. Neither side is anti-choice or anti-life, so how are the terms of the discussion framed in this manner? Shouldn't we be discussing pro-abortion against anti-abortion points in a real discussion?

By being in favor of pro-life, fundamentally one has to negate the autonomy of the individual (i.e. the living mother). It is essentially a matter of allowing a potential life at the sake of a potential choice.

[Rudkobing]

It sounds better.

[Mormolyce]

Im glad this debate been over since the 80s, in normal countries that is.

Tell me about it.

[Deleted]

Pro-murdering-babies dosent really sound as great as pro-choice

[Dezerte]

It's liberty/freedom versus authoritarianism they way I see it. Even if, for the sake of the argument, we agree that fetuses are human beings with some human rights it's still pro-liberty/freedom to allow the mother to choose because of bodily autonomy.

[Lochton]

Then pro-choice is still the best, most accurate term for it. Pro-abortion is still primarily not used by choicers, it's used by lifers wanting to deride the pro-choice position.

Oh, of course, pro-choice is the better sounding word.

[Vankrys]

because being "anti" something making it sound like restricting freedoms.

In the "land of the free", restricting freedom usually doesn't go well. So they have to be "pro" something, it sends a more positive message. Of course, it's wrong, the whole point of the movement is to make abortion illegal, so they truly are anti abortion, but they can't say it.

It's hypocritical in a way, but the whole pro life movement is hypocritical anyway. They say they care about the defenseless fetus, but as soon as it's born, they couldn't care less about either the baby or the mom. They don't care about the life, education, the baby would have or its well being, they only care about a random fetus being born, somehow. Don't ask me why.

[Deleted]

Then pro-choice is still the best, most accurate term for it. Pro-abortion is still primarily not used by choicers, it's used by lifers wanting to deride the pro-choice position.

Lifers? Hm, I would never in a million years be offended by being called a lifer. What does this make the other side then? Deathers, Deatheaters? ^^

[Deleted]

But pro-life is literally anti-choice.

In the same way making rape illegal is anti-choice.

[TITAN308]

someone got it into their head that they should decide what another person should do.

I hate to break it to you, but we've been deciding what other humans can do for quite a while.

This is not something new to abortion or even unique to it.

[Total Crica]

In the end, regardless of what anyone says before or during the act, the woman always decides what happens afterwards.

And every single man knows this. Which is why his decision about becoming a parent begins and ends at his decision to gift his sperm or not to her, because he KNOWS she decides after that, not him.

[Deleted]

Genuine question. Neither side is anti-choice or anti-life

If you are against abortion, you are against choice. So yeah you're anti-choice.

If you are in favour of abortion you are in favour of the legal killing of fetuses. So you are anti-life.

[Dezerte]

Lifers? Hm, I would never in a million years be offended by being called a lifer. What does this make the other side then? Deathers, Deatheaters? ^^

No-lifers? But it's already taken.

[Blade Wolf]

I always find the pro-life stance republicans have amusing. We are pro-life, but only until the kid is born then we cannot give 2 shits about it.

[VooDsXo]

Genuine question. Neither side is anti-choice or anti-life, so how are the terms of the discussion framed in this manner? Shouldn't we be discussing pro-abortion against anti-abortion points in a real discussion?

It would seem you don't have comprehension skills in the slightest, the fact that you understand the topic to be what it is, but don't understand the concept of "Pro-Choice/Pro-Life", which is pretty bad. The problem isn't the framing, but the fact that kids are making it past fourth grade without comprehension skills.

[Vyuvarax]

It would seem you don't have comprehension skills in the slightest, the fact that you understand the topic to be what it is, but don't understand the concept of "Pro-Choice/Pro-Life", which is pretty bad. The problem isn't the framing, but the fact that kids are making it past fourth grade without comprehension skills.

Oh I understand the "concept" of these terms, I'm just saying the concept is dishonest if there is no one who views themselves as anti-choice or at least certainly no one who views themselves as anti-life. Please don't be condescending when your argumentation is shallow and without grounds for your claim. It embarrassed you.

- - - Updated - - -

If you are against abortion, you are against choice. So yeah you're anti-choice.

If you are in favour of abortion you are in favour of the legal killing of fetuses. So you are anti-life.

No one who is for abortion's continued legalization views themselves as anti-life due to not viewing a fetus as the equivalent of a human being. No one who is for the stoppage of abortion' legalization sees acts that ought to be illegal as choice. Again, this politicized framing seems, with a little analysis, dishonest.

[Deleted]

I am actually interested where the anti-abortion stance comes from on the religious end of things.

Did God or Jesus ever say anything about abortion?

[Deleted]

And every single man knows this. Which is why his decision about becoming a parent begins and ends at his decision to gift his sperm or not to her, because he KNOWS she decides after that, not him.

I've agreed with a lot of the thing you've repeated over and over again in this topic, but there are also a few points you've made on which I'm not as hasty to back you up.

That it should be a woman's choice as to whether they abort or keep a baby is, at least from my perspective, not something that should come under discussion. I totally support bodily autonomy and agree wholeheartedly with the point that pregnancy is pretty much the only situation where it isn't considered an inalienable right these days.

That said, I think that when two people cause a pregnancy without planning it, there should at least be a discussion of what each party wants. The woman, while having the ultimate say, should still talk about it with the potential father and weigh carefully the desires of both parties before deciding what to do. If he wants to be a parent and she doesn't, fair enough. That would likely result in an abortion, and I can't really say that would be the wrong thing to do. However, if he doesn't want to be a parent and she does, the way things currently work is ridiculous. The woman is exercising her right to bodily autonomy and choosing to carry the child to term, fair enough. But then *she* made the *conscious decision* to create a new life which would require additional resources, despite knowing beforehand that the man who got her pregnant had no desire to be a father. I don't think he should be forced to pay child support if he made it clear to her that he didn't want to be a parent.

In cases where one party intentionally deceives the other into thinking that a sexual encounter is safer than it actually is, I also don't think responsibility for the resulting child, should they be carried to term, should be forced upon the person who was misled.

Really, the end point of your "no contraceptive method is 100% reliable" is that men should never, ever have sex with a woman unless they want to be a father. But there are men and women who want to have casual sex without pregnancy, so how do you reconcile that? Is your viewpoint honestly that sex should be solely for procreation and nothing else?

[Orbitus]

I am actually interested where the anti-abortion stance comes from on the religious end of things.

Did God or Jesus ever say anything about abortion?

The Bible condones it, but since religion is a forbidden topic, I will leave it at that.