Why is the abortion debate framed as pro-choice vs pro-life?

[rda]

No, you're refusing to see that a developing baby is in fact a baby.

At what age does a cluster of cells become a developing baby? This question has been at the center of big *scientific* debates, just in case. The answer isn't simple.

[Queen of Hamsters]

"Clearly too emotional"

No, you're refusing to see that a developing baby is in fact a baby. You're using the same belief that literal nazis used with jews, "They're not real people"

And now you're screaming "literally nazi!", how very predictable.

As I said, too emotional, as most anti-choice people.

/Jewish descendant.

[Deleted]

"Clearly too emotional"

No, you're refusing to see that a developing baby is in fact a baby. You're using the same belief that literal nazis used with jews, "They're not real people"

Inside the womb = Fetus
Outside the womb = Baby

A lot of websites and even hospitals misuse the terminology because it would simply be too complex for parents, and parents are going to refer to their baby at any stage and not to their fetus. But essentially a kid in the womb goes from Cell > Zygote > Embryo > Fetus and becomes a baby when born.

[Scathbais]

My wife and I did get an abortion once, about 7 years ago. Neither of us had steady full-time jobs, nor paid leave for maternity or similar, and there was no way we would be able to financially sustain a pregnancy, let alone a child. If we had gone to term, we would have been bankrupted by medical bills, and still had to give up the baby for adoption.

That doesn't look like personal responsibility to me. That looks like expecting other people to care for the child we would have had, while expecting the state to fund our bankruptcy.

I feel sad for you both to think you had to make that decision. Do you have regrets that you killed your unborn child? Does your wife think about it? Do you two ever talk about it?

[Queen of Hamsters]

No, I'm quite calm. But glad to know how blood thirsty and demonizing you are, as most pro-baby-butchering people.

FYI, I've said several times in this thread that I could never have an abortion myself.

The only one "demonizing" here, would be you. As per most anti-choice people. Your emotions cloud reality.

[Heladys]

Because Planned Parenthood and liberal media/elites try to convince young women that the babies that are growing inside their bodies are merely polyps, just a cluster of cells that have no moral value. They focus on the "choice" women have to do whatever they want with their bodies and ignore the fact that a baby is being killed.

Pro-lifers want women to understand that they are carrying another human inside them. That their unborn child is indeed a viable human and that aborting their child is murder. I have no idea if the majority of pro-lifers want to ban abortions outright (like the religious right do) or if they want women to understand the consequences of abortion (to themselves and to the life they carry).

"Pro-lifers" don't give a fuck about life, or else their policies would provide post-natal support for all those babies they want to come to term.

[rda]

Check out what an abortion looks like and tell me it's still a cluster of cells and not a baby.

Why is it a baby and not part of mother? What's the criteria?

[Vyuvarax]

Because Planned Parenthood and liberal media/elites try to convince young women that the babies that are growing inside their bodies are merely polyps, just a cluster of cells that have no moral value. They focus on the "choice" women have to do whatever they want with their bodies and ignore the fact that a baby is being killed.

Pro-lifers want women to understand that they are carrying another human inside them. That their unborn child is indeed a viable human and that aborting their child is murder. I have no idea if the majority of pro-lifers want to ban abortions outright (like the religious right do) or if they want women to understand the consequences of abortion (to themselves and to the life they carry).

But from the side that is for continued legalized abortion, a fetus is not a baby anymore than a cluster of cells. Shouldn't you, as someone who is anti-abortion, focus on why that's not true? Give them evidence that they can find compelling.

I find both sides to be quite rational in their reasoning, but they always assume the other side is irrational. Isn't that part of how we got here?

[Scathbais]

Inside the womb = Fetus
Outside the womb = Baby

Fetus = unborn human
Baby = human
Both human.

[Gaexion Ramza Beoulve]

You can dress it up however you want.

But no government, religion, or bureaucrat should have sovereignty over a person's body.

Abortion is murder, and murder is a tool.

So the choice becomes very simple, do women own their bodies? Are their vaginas property of the state or property of themselves?

I got news for you, if your body is property of the state then you are no better than a slave, and a society that is half slave will collapse.

Freedom>Fetus

[rda]

The answer is simple, conception.

Any other scenarios you can draw parallels to and umbrella others in those situations.

In the womb? Any other form of life support.
Not fully developed? Anyone deemed disabled.
Cluster of cells? Literally everyone.

Well, no, it isn't that simple because by saying "it's conception" you choose to say that some properties of a human are defining it as a human and others aren't.

[Antiganon]

I feel sad for you both to think you had to make that decision. Do you have regrets that you killed your unborn child? Does your wife think about it? Do you two ever talk about it?

Yes, on all counts. It was a horrifying experience I would wish on nobody, but I understand people being in a position where it is the only practical option.

This is a huge part of the reason I immediately shut down any attempts to equate "pro-choice" with "pro-abortion".

[rda]

Because it's not made up of 100% her cells.

We are in the process of defining what's "her" and what's "someone else's". You can't use "it's not her because it's made not of her cells", that's circular logic.

If you mean cells of the father, that's a different thing.

[Vyuvarax]

Fetus = unborn human
Baby = human
Both human.

I don't think people who view abortion as okay believe by and large that a fetus is human, and you won't find any scientific evidence to support you because what it is to be human is a philosophical question. There's no solid evidence in any direction, just a bunch of differently drawn lines.

[Scathbais]

"Pro-lifers" don't give a fuck about life, or else their policies would provide post-natal support for all those babies they want to come to term.

I don't see how the two are related. You made the baby, you pay for the baby. You don't get to kill your baby just because it is inconvenient. How is forcing me to pay for your baby in any way related to you being able to murder your baby?

[Queen of Hamsters]

So much so that I believe babies aren't worth being protecting amirite? You're clearly offended and raising a fuss. You are the emotional one who's scrambling to defend murder.

You just keep proving my point time and again.

I'm not offended, I don't place my values on strangers. I could never have an abortion, but that doesn't mean I'll assume a position of moral high ground over other men/women in different situations than myself.

That tactic belongs to your group, the anti-choice zealots.

[Heladys]

I don't see how the two are related. You made the baby, you pay for the baby. You don't get to kill your baby just because it is inconvenient. How is forcing me to pay for your baby in any way related to you being able to murder your baby?

There's no murder when there's no human.

There is however murder when you force a baby to come to term knowing it's not wanted and cannot be supported and do nothing to address those gaps.

pro-lifers are responsible for far more human deaths than any amount of abortions.

[Deleted]

Check out what an abortion looks like and tell me it's still a cluster of cells and not a baby.

Depends on when it's administrated. A fetus does not have a heartbeat until it's 16 weeks old, only in very rare cases it happens around 14.5-15 weeks, hence why most abortion laws in the world provide abortion until 14 weeks into the pregnancy. I know in my country if you have abortion beyond 14 weeks into the pregnancy and it's not based on medical grounds, you will go to jail for it, both the doctor that did it and the woman that asked for it.

[Scathbais]

I don't think people who view abortion as okay believe by and large that a fetus is human, and you won't find any scientific evidence to support you because what it is to be human is a philosophical question. There's no solid evidence in any direction, just a bunch of differently drawn lines.

A baby is human at conception. If left untouched it will grow into a baby. Not a hard concept. Philosophy not needed for something this simple.

[rda]

No, you're choosing to say that some properties of a human define it as human and others don't.

Because there is no way not to choose. You are necessarily choosing. By drawing the line at time X you are choosing one pair of defining / non-defining characteristics, by drawing the line at time Y you are choosing another pair.