Varian vs Mannoroth

[Dagoth Ur]

The way Grom killed Mannoroth always felt so bad to me.
Do people who think the lore back then was written better than current one truly prefer such kills in comparison to what Blizzard is delivering nowadays?
I imagine the outrage would be insane, if Blizzard would give us stuff like this in the current time.

Voted Mannoroth. No warrior should be able to take down a pitlord like that 1v1.

Problem is Legion has been so watered down and dumbfied, demons aren't really as threatning as they were in War3.

In RTS Archimonde literally oblitarated three armies for the lols on his way to World Tree.
Tyrande had to hide from regular doomguard.
Illidan pissed his pants just from speaking to KJ.

Pit Lords were always known as one of the best fighters in Legion, as you say none should be able to beat them 1v1 and Mannroth is literally strongest Pit Lord there is.

What Grom did is pure insane luck and part Mannaroth not taking him seriously.

[LarryWithTheWeatherReport]

Problem is Legion has been so watered down and dumbfied, demons aren't really as threatning as they were in War3.

In RTS Archimonde literally oblitarated three armies for the lols on his way to World Tree.
Tyrande had to hide from regular doomguard.
Illidan pissed his pants just from speaking to KJ.

Pit Lords were always known as one of the best fighters in Legion, as you say none should be able to beat them 1v1 and Mannroth is literally strongest Pit Lord there is.

What Grom did is pure insane luck and part Mannaroth not taking him seriously.

Yeah they kinda nerfed the Legion and it's commanders, especially the commaders. Legion army are still the strongest since they got stronger pound for pound unit types than the previous expansions foes. Archimodne and Kil'jaeden were suppose to be the game over types if either one of them entered Azeroth. Malfurion, Thrall, Jaina and their armies were like insects to Archimonde. And the idea of trying to fight Kil'jaeden seems out of the question for Illidan even when he had Kael, Lady Vash, Akama, and three armies with him. The brokens, the blood Elves, and the nagas.

Seems the WotA book were the start of the nerf.

[Rathbourne]

Wow.....people really dont know how to put things in perspective,do they......

Mannoroth stomps,with relative ease.Just as he would stomp Grom in a real fight that didnt involve an Iron Star or a pit lord sized container full of hubris.
Mannoroth is around the same level as Illidan and the Lich King,and Varian would pretty much get slaughtered by either.

[LarryWithTheWeatherReport]

Wow.....people really dont know how to put things in perspective,do they......

Mannoroth stomps,with relative ease.Just as he would stomp Grom in a real fight that didnt involve an Iron Star or a pit lord sized container full of hubris.
Mannoroth is around the same level as Illidan and the Lich King,and Varian would pretty much get slaughtered by either.

What Mannoroth same level as the Lich King lol???? The Lich King can just send 1 horsemen to deal with Mannoroth while he sits back and watch as he is far beyond either of them.

[Hyral]

I imagine the fight would go with Varian jumping high in the air and sinking Shalamayne into Mannoroth's skull. Then Mannoroth explodes as he dies from the blow, Varian standing in defiance as the fire of the explosion is about to reach him but Anduin from the future jumps in to save him. Jaina crawls out of the rubble and protests that our destiny was to dismantle the horde, Anduin grabs her by the neck of her robes and tells her times change.

So yeah, Varian would win.

[LarryWithTheWeatherReport]

I imagine the fight would go with Varian jumping high in the air and sinking Shalamayne into Mannoroth's skull. Then Mannoroth explodes as he dies from the blow, Varian standing in defiance as the fire of the explosion is about to reach him but Anduin from the future jumps in to save him. Jaina crawls out of the rubble and protests that our destiny was to dismantle the horde, Anduin grabs her by the neck of her robes and tells her times change.

So yeah, Varian would win.

Lmaooo Jaina must be desperate if she joined the Legion just to dismantle the Horde. Would Anduin capture her afterwards like what Garrosh did to Guldan or does he have something else in mind?

[Friendlyimmolation]

Lmaooo Jaina must be desperate if she joined the Legion just to dismantle the Horde. Would Anduin capture her afterwards like what Garrosh did to Guldan or does he have something else in mind?

He has a meeting with mommy/ aunty jaina

[LarryWithTheWeatherReport]

He has a meeting with mommy/ aunty jaina

Lol Jaina is a playa, trying to go for Arthas when she already had a child.

[Qualia]

What's with all those VS threads nowadays? Did people just discover the existence of VS threads or something? Like this one, the ones in which there isn't enough detailed information of both participants, just make a bad VS thread. Alas, WoW characters just lack those. When we have to leave things mainly to imagination and speculation, it already steps in the "whose fans wank better" category instead of a nice "How'd a fight between them be?".

[Zethras]

These "____ vs ____" are getting kind of foolish now.

Next we'll have "Hogger vs Neptulon"

Obviously Hogger would win.

[Rathbourne]

What Mannoroth same level as the Lich King lol???? The Lich King can just send 1 horsemen to deal with Mannoroth while he sits back and watch as he is far beyond either of them.

Please dude....stop it with that Lich King boner.British Bulldog already did that gimmick. Unless your the same person.....

[LarryWithTheWeatherReport]

Please dude....stop it with that Lich King boner.British Bulldog already did that gimmick. Unless your the same person.....

There is no boner here, you can't seriously think Mannoroth would defeat the Lich King. Don't know who that is, I assume another Arthas fan? I think 1 horsemen could be a match for Mannoroth if a living mortal like grom can kill him with some luck.

[Felfaadaern Darkterror]

"Battle takes place in stormwind" = decisive factor. Even assuming you're not including soldiers and siege weapons, the fact that it happens on Azeroth means Goldrinn can be there in spirit to empower Varian.

[nyc81991]

These "____ vs ____" are getting kind of foolish now.

Next we'll have "Hogger vs Neptulon"

Yeah, we all know Hogger would win that fight. It's not even worth talking about.

[AboikoS]

Well lets be honest, Variann is or rather was a strong fighter of exceptional strength, but he was still just a mere, and weak mortal human.
Mannoroth on the other hand is one of the strongest Legion commanders and surely the most powerful of all Pit Lords, and we all know how powerful a pit lord is. Just because we can kill him in raid it doesnt make him a character of only a average power. Mannoroth would definitely wipe Variann in a straight 1v1, he would surely defeat Khadgar, Thrall and others of such strength. Oh and lets dont even talk about Illidan alright? He lost a 1v1 duel against pre-lich king arthas and that was when lich king was weakened (remember only 6lvl on arthas in the last mission? Ye).

And about Grom. I think a lot of people underrestimate him.
Grom was that one who seemed to benefit more from fel magic than any other Orc. Yes ofc. He was reckless yolo guy but that doesnt change anything.
I dont think you people realize that Grom originally (wc3 lore) defeated Mannoroth with a single swing, and that wasnt a clear head hit because mannoroth was disracted like it was in WoD cinematic.
He went a full yolo badass charge->mortal strike through Mannoroths armor on his torso and also he broke Mannoroth's defense as he parried that attack on top of it all, do you imagine a puny orc out strength matching a gigantic demon's 2 hand parry? Guess by yourself now how strong he was when he was filled with demon blood, and that wasnt even a Red Grom.
Do you remember a DEMI-GOD called Cenarius? Did you know a Red Grom took down Cenarius in a 1v1?
And Cenarius was far more powerful than Mannoroth, hell Mannoroth feared Cenarius so much that he used Grommash to make the job done.

I feel like people really underrestimate how much power did anger and madness throughout fel blood gave Grom. When he was "Red" he could take on Cenarius, in a "green" theoretically weaker form he could out strength Mannoroth easily. Honestly i think that in that time he could really take on a Lich King and win easily. In a red form obviously. He probably still wouldnt have a chance against Archimonde or Kill'Jaeden but still, its a huge achivement for a mere Orc that just drunk some Demon blood imo.

Not like im a Grom fan lover or smth, but i just hope i made some things straight.

[Qualia]

Oh and lets dont even talk about Illidan alright? He lost a 1v1 duel against pre-lich king arthas and that was when lich king was weakened (remember only 6lvl on arthas in the last mission? Ye).

? You may want to play WC3 again, and read up on "Rise of the Lich King" while at it. Arthas wasn't weakened when he fought Illidan, LK already restored his power. In fact, Lich King empowered Arthas with all he could afford back then, making Arthas even more powerful than he ever was before that. Arthas was lvl 10 on my last mission, so I'm sure you're just misremembering it :P Or, if we go with the more canon depiction of the event, the novel stated that "Coldness suddenly began to seep through Arthas, numbing the angry, raw pain, calming his thoughts. The energy was so vast, so heady…it was more powerful even than what Arthas had known before. This, then, was why he had come. To drink deep of this icy draft, to take the cold strength of the Lich King into himself".

And while we are at it, "Rise of the Lich King" also described how the fight actually went in details: it was an even fight, and Illidan actually had upperhands at times. He received a slash on his torso, but pushed Arthas back on his knees and bathed him in Fel fire powerful enough to knock the DK down. Arthas only managed to get the final - albeit most important - hit in when Illidan came to personally deliver the finishing blow. Arthas triumphed, but just like how Grom won against Mannoroth, it wasn't direct result of him being the more powerful fighter - if Illidan wasn't arrogant, Arthas would have been done right there. This isn't even pre-TBC / Legion Illidan, for that matter.

And no, Grom didn't take Cenarius 1v1, unless I'm missing something big from one of the novels. In game, he fought against Cenarius with his Chaos Orc / Orc drank Mannoroth blood. In regards to Mannoroth, Grom only managed to kill him because of Fel Blood + surprise strike when Mannoroth underestimated him during WC3, or surprise strike + Iron Star in AU Draenor before WoD. Red Grom is powerful, but not as powerful as Mannoroth normally.

Just make something straight, because without PiS, Mannoroth would wipe out Grom and Varian. Probably both at the same time.

[Rathbourne]

There is no boner here, you can't seriously think Mannoroth would defeat the Lich King. Don't know who that is, I assume another Arthas fan? I think 1 horsemen could be a match for Mannoroth if a living mortal like grom can kill him with some luck.

Ok...il take the bait..

Mannoroth would 1 shot any horsemen.Probably even Alexandros/Darian with corrupted Ashbringer. Mannoroth has got ridiculous strength in melee and a lot of ranged firepower. He was more efficient than the highborn in helping stabilize the portal in War of the Ancients novel,showing knowledge of the Arcane.The Lich King would have to fight with everything he has to defeat Mannoroth, and even then victory is not assured in a 1v1.

The Lich King is a necromancer with strong death magics higher than that of any Death Knight,but he has a mortal body.He is as powerful as Mannoroth,Prepared Illidan but far weaker than the likes of Archimonde,Kiljaedan,Deathwing etc. Dave Kosak one of the chief developers of World of Warcraft,the man responsible for a lot of the lore was asked if the Lich King could beat Lei Shen,the Thunder King.Kosak said that the Scourge was stronger than the Mogu empire but Lie Shen would defeat the Lich King in 1v1 combat.

[FuxieDK]

While Varian can be as lucky as Grom, he can in theory one-shot Manno..

However, in pracsis, Manno will not be caught off guard for the 3rd time, so Varian will not have a snowballs change in Hell..

[AboikoS]

? You may want to play WC3 again, and read up on "Rise of the Lich King" while at it. Arthas wasn't weakened when he fought Illidan, LK already restored his power. In fact, Lich King empowered Arthas with all he could afford back then, making Arthas even more powerful than he ever was before that. Arthas was lvl 10 on my last mission, so I'm sure you're just misremembering it :P Or, if we go with the more canon depiction of the event, the novel stated that "Coldness suddenly began to seep through Arthas, numbing the angry, raw pain, calming his thoughts. The energy was so vast, so heady…it was more powerful even than what Arthas had known before. This, then, was why he had come. To drink deep of this icy draft, to take the cold strength of the Lich King into himself".

And while we are at it, "Rise of the Lich King" also described how the fight actually went in details: it was an even fight, and Illidan actually had upperhands at times. He received a slash on his torso, but pushed Arthas back on his knees and bathed him in Fel fire powerful enough to knock the DK down. Arthas only managed to get the final - albeit most important - hit in when Illidan came to personally deliver the finishing blow. Arthas triumphed, but just like how Grom won against Mannoroth, it wasn't direct result of him being the more powerful fighter - if Illidan wasn't arrogant, Arthas would have been done right there. This isn't even pre-TBC / Legion Illidan, for that matter.

And no, Grom didn't take Cenarius 1v1, unless I'm missing something big from one of the novels. In game, he fought against Cenarius with his Chaos Orc / Orc drank Mannoroth blood. In regards to Mannoroth, Grom only managed to kill him because of Fel Blood + surprise strike when Mannoroth underestimated him during WC3, or surprise strike + Iron Star in AU Draenor before WoD. Red Grom is powerful, but not as powerful as Mannoroth normally.

Just make something straight, because without PiS, Mannoroth would wipe out Grom and Varian. Probably both at the same time.

Really considered ignoring this cuz i've never seen so much missinformed BS in my life. Not only im almost sure you didnt play WC3 but you didnt even watch cinematics before making a post. How can you talk about something, you clearly have no idea about? You didnt even prepare yourself properly, Illidan lover. Why would i even take you seriously...?

So lets beging shall we?

1. Grom vs cenarius
-Honestly doubt orcs 20 vs 1 cenarius, orcs are that race that cares more about honor and glory, especially Grom so its a first thing that makes it more likely that Grom dueled Cenarius.
-there is a picture showing red furious Grom standing upon the Cenarius body literally claiming his defeat as a glorious trophy.
-i think i've read it somewhere that during the whole battle grom finally met Cenarius and after a brief duel, he strike him down. Not sure tho or dont remember exactly the sources.
So as you can see facts that we have acces to show that my theory is most likely the right one.

2. Grom vs mannoroth
Just watch the cinematic just god damn watch it jesus christ coz i cant stand a person commenting about something he has no idea about. Grom does hit him in the chest cutting through BOTH MANNOROTH's ARMOR AND MANNOROTH's PARRY. Do you understand ? MANNOROTH WAS EXPECTING THAT HIT IT WASNT LUCKY HE PREPARED A DEFENSE FOR IT WITH HIS POLEARM OR W/E IT IS. BUT GROMS SWING WENT THROUGH ANYWAY CLEARLY SHOWING THAT HIS PHYSIAL STRENGTH WAS VASTLY SUPERIOR AT THAT MOMENT. If caps doesnt help you at read it properly then nothing will.
Mannoroth was powerful but Grom's recklessness, anger, experiance and combat talent paired too good with the power benefited from fel blood. None orc was as strong after drinking mannoroth's blood as Grom was and that is clearly shown in the game.
However i completely agree that a normal "brown" Grom like the one shown in WoD wouldnt probably stand a chance against fel imbued giant Demon. He took him down because they were prepared for him, and he wasnt prepared for their attack. But in the canyon when they fought with Thrall together against Mannoroth, none of them was ever a victim of a suprise attack.

3. Arthas vs illidan
Facepalm. Did you even play WC3? I've played it hundreds of times completing both RoC and TFT . And i perfectly remember that Arthas could have only 6 level max, that was explained in a few missions earlier.
So in short, Lich King's ice prison or w/e it was had a crack of some kind i think it was coz of illidan using the eye of sargeras trying to use it against the ice crown, thus Ner'zhuls power started to weaken, so was Arthas's at the same time - as his power came from the Lich King, logic. So that is why in a few missions of undead campaign in TFT you were loosing a level clearly showing that arthas started too loose power along with LK. In pre-last mission you were down to 3 level i believe and in the last mission LK said to you that he gives Arthas all the power he has left to help him succeed in his mission, thus giving you a chance to level up to level 6 (or actually giving u 6 instantly dont remember exactly). I dont have to give you source because im sure im right and you're not, it would be just a waste of time.
So, arthas had level 6 thus blizz automatically suggested that he is not at the peak of his power like he previously was. Do you understand? Its a simple logic, LK gave him all what he had but it was still significantly less than before because he was strongly weakened jesus christ.

At the end they fought in a brief duel showing that Arthas was the superior fighter, even when not being at the peak of his power as the Lich King was weakened he took down Illidan quiet easily.
So a mere decent former paladin with a decent weapon (lets not call frostmourne super powerful cuz it never was lore-wise) and remnants of his power took on a fight against The chosen one, the strongest demon hunter filled with the power sucked from Guldan's skull and won without really much effort to be honest.
So either Arthas's combat skills were unmatched which i highly doubt, (he might have been a great fighter but clearly not unmatched) or Illidan is generally pretty weak lore wise.
I understand that you like a specific character, Illidan in this case, i always liked him too, its just blizz clearly showing us that he is not as strong as it may seem and it have been proven a few times already. I feel like blizz noticed that. Thats why they made him to replace Thrall's previous role - being a jesus the savior of azeroth, or possibly another villain in next xpac cuz he is the Betrayer after all, right?

What you are saying is a pure BS of your fanboyism making you look foolish.

- - - Updated - - -

Okay anyone saying Grom threw a lucky hit just watch a damn cinematic. Watch it carefully, preferably a few times in a row in a slow mode to see the moment he strikes cuz I see you guys watched that cinematic with your eyes closed or smth.
Speaking of WC3 cinematic obviously.

[Reza2001]

What Mannoroth same level as the Lich King lol???? The Lich King can just send 1 horsemen to deal with Mannoroth while he sits back and watch as he is far beyond either of them.

Wow.....people really dont know how to put things in perspective,do they......

Mannoroth stomps,with relative ease.Just as he would stomp Grom in a real fight that didnt involve an Iron Star or a pit lord sized container full of hubris.
Mannoroth is around the same level as Illidan and the Lich King,and Varian would pretty much get slaughtered by either.

Plz tell me , How the hell is Mannoroth at the same power as Illidan OR Lich King ?

Mannoroth has body advantage over both of them , He can pretty much split the Lich King into half if he wants to , Can The Lich King leap and get a kill ? Probably not with that type of armor , Can Illidan ? Sure , He is fast and damn good at killing demons (Even pit lords , 2 so far) But yeah Lich King is not as powerful as y'all think he is , Saying that Baron Rivendare OR Darion Morgraine (they both were his horseman weren't they?) can kill Mannoroth is just pure underestimation of Mannoroth's raw power

Varian has Goldrinn's Blessing , which it might be slightly powerful or weaker compared to Grom having Mannoroth's blood who has chronologically killed him Twice (one time without the blood and another time with the blood)