Why is the abortion debate framed as pro-choice vs pro-life?

[Nfinitii]

Quick question for all you pro lifers -

Do you have a uterus?

Are you comfortable with giving the government the right to decide what happens in said uterus?

If the answer to either question is no, kindly fuck off.

No one cares about ur uterus. They care about the human life inside of it.

[Total Crica]

No one cares about ur uterus. They care about the human life inside of it.

If you don't care about my uterus, why would I trust you to care about anything inside of my uterus, seeing as you have to go through my uterus in order to care for whatever is inside of my uterus.

So yeah, you can still piss off.

ITT: people who don't care about my uterus think I am actually going to allow them anywhere near my uterus...

[Halyon]

No one cares about ur uterus. They care about the human life inside of it.

What makes that life more valuable, and what gives it any right that is stronger than the woman's full rights?

[Antiganon]

No one cares about ur uterus. They care about the human life inside of it.

Thanks for this thoughtful answer to the question I posed. I have a much better understanding now of why you hold these beliefs.

/s

My point is that you would not want the government legislating your reproductive rights.

In the US, Republicans currently control all 3 levers of the legislative process. They could pass a law tomorrow that overturns Roe v Wade and makes it the government's place to legislate when abortion is acceptable.

Fast forward 10 years, and you could have some other party in control, using those same laws to mandate abortions. Collecting welfare? Mandatory abortion. In the military? Mandatory abortion. You have a genetic disorder that could be passed to a child? Mandatory abortion.

How can you not see that this is a personal issue between a woman, her doctor, and the would-be father? You get no opinion about other people's reproductive rights, unless you are ready and willing to give up your own.

[jediknight12]

It should be framed as pro-murder vs pro-life.I only wish i could post abortion video's here and show that when u see them go in and cut the limbs off u see the baby flinch and look on face of pure agony.

[Nfinitii]

What makes that life more valuable, and what gives it any right that is stronger than the woman's full rights?

No one values ones life over another, idk y u think u can kill another b/c it will inconvenience u and u don't want to take responsibility for ur actions. No one had the right to kill another, so idk what right u think we r taking from u by not allowing u to kill a baby. The "pro-choice" arguement has nothing to do w/ choice, u alrdy made ur choice when u choose to have sex and now u don't want to take responsibility for ur actions. Sry if u can't handle the consequences or taking action to prevent said consequences. Time to grow up and take responsibility for ur actions, not kill someone b/c u want to be a child

[Total Crica]

No one values ones life over another, idk y u think u can kill another b/c it will inconvenience u and u don't want to take responsibility for ur actions. No one had the right to kill another, so idk what right u think we r taking from u by not allowing u to kill a baby. The "pro-choice" arguement has nothing to do w/ choice, u alrdy made ur choice when u choose to have sex and now u don't want to take responsibility for ur actions. Sry if u can't handle the consequences or taking action to prevent said consequences. Time to grow up and take responsibility for ur actions, not kill someone b/c u want to be a child

Yeah, no. Who do you think you are spouting this nonsense? Everyone's parents? No one is going to remain pregnant just because you want them to, especially now that you have informed everyone that you don't even care about their uterus that is pregnant. Going to have to come up with more then "cuz I said so", mom/dad!

[Antiganon]

No one values ones life over another, idk y u think u can kill another b/c it will inconvenience u and u don't want to take responsibility for ur actions. No one had the right to kill another, so idk what right u think we r taking from u by not allowing u to kill a baby. The "pro-choice" arguement has nothing to do w/ choice, u alrdy made ur choice when u choose to have sex and now u don't want to take responsibility for ur actions. Sry if u can't handle the consequences or taking action to prevent said consequences. Time to grow up and take responsibility for ur actions, not kill someone b/c u want to be a child

Are you people incapable of reading anything you don't already agree with? Go back and read some of my other posts in this thread, you might learn a thing or two about this debate.

But then, in order to truly learn, you have to be willing to be wrong, which is obviously not the case.

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It should be framed as pro-murder vs pro-life.I only wish i could post abortion video's here and show that when u see them go in and cut the limbs off u see the baby flinch and look on face of pure agony.

You are talking about partial birth abortions, which have been illegal for quite some time.

Most abortions today are performed medically. You swallow a pill and essentially induce a miscarriage.

Not remotely the same, though it doesn't matter to you, since you are only interested in appeals to emotion.

[Halyon]

No one values ones life over another, idk y u think u can kill another b/c it will inconvenience u and u don't want to take responsibility for ur actions. No one had the right to kill another, so idk what right u think we r taking from u by not allowing u to kill a baby. The "pro-choice" arguement has nothing to do w/ choice, u alrdy made ur choice when u choose to have sex and now u don't want to take responsibility for ur actions. Sry if u can't handle the consequences or taking action to prevent said consequences. Time to grow up and take responsibility for ur actions, not kill someone b/c u want to be a child

Yes, you do. A fetus is a cluster of cells when the first method of abortion can be performed; a pill. It flushes the pregnancy out like a heavy menstruation. Does that constitute a person to you? Because it doesn't in medical science.

It should be framed as pro-murder vs pro-life.I only wish i could post abortion video's here and show that when u see them go in and cut the limbs off u see the baby flinch and look on face of pure agony.

Yeh, let's not rely on facts, medical science and biology to determine abortion access and limitations, nah, let's use emotional bludgeons to guilt people!

[ablock87]

Not remotely the same, though it doesn't matter to you, since you are only interested in appeals to emotion.

Says the guy that whined about being married and low on money while having a child on the way. Cry me a river.

[Antiganon]

Says the guy that whined about being married and low on money while having a child on the way. Cry me a river.

I whined about nothing, and asked for no handouts from anyone.

I merely told my story and how the choice to get an abortion or not has a lot more factors to it than "well, I guess be more responsible about your sex life".

Also note the guy I replied to wants to show videos of partial birth abortions (which are illegal, and are horrible, as the baby [and it is a baby at that point] would be viable outside the womb) as justification to ban all abortions. That is not a rational argument to make, it is an attempt to appeal to base emotion because he can't be bothered to find any facts to back up his argument.

An appropriate analogy would be if I wanted to ban guns, so I showed you graphic videos of people being shot in the head. Since homicide is already illegal, showing videos of homicide as a justification to make gun ownership illegal would be ill-conceived and irrelevant at best, and more likely actively dishonest on my part.

[Symphonic]

ITT: people who don't care about my uterus think I am actually going to allow them anywhere near my uterus...

Prenatal care is much less intrusive than an abortion procedure. And in cases when the unborn baby is older than 12 weeks, the actual birth is less invasive, too.

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It should be framed as pro-murder vs pro-life.I only wish i could post abortion video's here and show that when u see them go in and cut the limbs off u see the baby flinch and look on face of pure agony.

There are some on this thread who would claim that by mentioning the way the face looks as it's being ripped apart is an appeal to emotion. They don't think the unborn baby can feel anything, which is completely wrong. By the time the baby is like 6 weeks gestation he can feel things.

[Halyon]

Prenatal care is much less intrusive than an abortion procedure. And in cases when the unborn baby is older than 12 weeks, the actual birth is less invasive, too.

It's also a lot more expensive. And again, if you don't want to carry a pregnancy through, it doesn't matter, abortion is the only option if you don't want a kid, or carry the pregnancy through. Pregnancy can have permanent, negative effects on the body, it can even prove fatal in some cases. Abortion is safer than carrying a pregnancy through statistically, because of the medical advances.

There are some on this thread who would claim that by mentioning the way the face looks as it's being ripped apart is an appeal to emotion. They don't think the unborn baby can feel anything, which is completely wrong. By the time the baby is like 6 weeks gestation he can feel things.

Nnno it can't. The nervous system is not developed enough for it to do that. There's nobody in there to feel anything. At some 20 weeks, when elective abortion is banned, then you have an argument.

[Total Crica]

Prenatal care is much less intrusive than an abortion procedure. And in cases when the unborn baby is older than 12 weeks, the actual birth is less invasive, too..

This has nothing to do with my post. I was replying to someone who doesn't care about my uterus. They wouldn't care which is less invasive to my uterus. But I take abortion pills, not have surgery.

[Antiganon]

Prenatal care is much less intrusive than an abortion procedure. And in cases when the unborn baby is older than 12 weeks, the actual birth is less invasive, too.

Prenatal care is also much more expensive. Additionally, maternity care would be optional coverage under most of the Republican health plans that have been proposed this year. Also pregnancy, including having been pregnant before even if you aren't now, is a preexisting condition, allowing insurers to raise your premiums up to 5 times as much.

If people are pro-life, why do they oppose spending measures that ensure people are able to bring a baby to term in a healthy way?

There are some on this thread who would claim that by mentioning the way the face looks as it's being ripped apart is an appeal to emotion. They don't think the unborn baby can feel anything, which is completely wrong. By the time the baby is like 6 weeks gestation he can feel things.

It is an appeal to emotion, plain and simple. Using graphic and disturbing content, representing the worst possible version of what you oppose, which is already illegal, shows me that you don't have a merit-based argument for your position.

If you think abortion is wrong on a fundamental level, that's fine. You are free not to get one. You do not get to make that determination for others.

[kail]

It should be framed as pro-murder vs pro-life.I only wish i could post abortion video's here and show that when u see them go in and cut the limbs off u see the baby flinch and look on face of pure agony.

What difference does it make?

[Vankrys]

It should be framed as pro-murder vs pro-life.I only wish i could post abortion video's here and show that when u see them go in and cut the limbs off u see the baby flinch and look on face of pure agony.

and of course, you volunteer to take care and financially support every single unwanted pregnency child of the country? No? well until then, don't tell what women/couple should do or not do about their unborn child.

[Total Crica]

and of course, you volunteer to take care and financially support every single unwanted pregnency child of the country? No? well until then, don't tell what women/couple should do or not do about their unborn child.

No, they don't get to demand I remain pregnant no matter how much money they are willing to toss at me. I am not for sale to breed for them, sorry.

[Symphonic]

Nnno it can't. The nervous system is not developed enough for it to do that. There's nobody in there to feel anything. At some 20 weeks, when elective abortion is banned, then you have an argument.

I guess it's more like 8 weeks where the systems are in place for the baby to feel pain, not 6 like I suggested.

Here is a hearing with this Doctor and who is an Associate Professor of Neurobiology and Anatomy at the University of Utah.

http://judiciary.house.gov/hearings/...2005232013.pdf

Here are some of her comments based on her research.
“The neural circuitry responsible for the most primitive response to pain, the spinal reflex, is in place by 8 weeks of development. This is the earliest point at which the fetus experiences pain in any capacity.”

“To experience pain, a noxious stimulus must be detected. The neural structures necessary to detect noxious stimuli are in place by 8-10 weeks of human development."

“There is universal agreement that pain is detected by the fetus in the first trimester. The debate concerns how pain is experienced ; i.e., whether a fetus has the same pain experience a newborn or an adult would have. While every individual’s experience of pain is personal, a number of scientific observations address what brain structures are necessary for a mental or psychological experience of pain.”

“Imposing pain on any pain-capable living creature is cruelty. And ignoring the pain experienced by another human individual for any reason is barbaric. We don’t need to know if a human fetus is self- reflective or even self- aware to afford it the same consideration we currently afford other pain – capable species. We simply have to decide whether we will choose to ignore the pain of the fetus or not,”

[LMuhlen]

In one of those states where you can shoot anyone who enters your house, can you theoretically just shoot your fetus off on the grounds of him entering your home uninvited?