Return of the Underwater Zones

[Doomchicken]

I HATED vashj'ir. There is never been another zone in any mmo I've hated more than Vashj'ir. Just absolute dogshit.

[Deleted]

Increase base swimspeed and I'm game.

[TyrannicalPuppy]

I think if they did one, it would have to be like The Ruby Sea in FFXIV. Anywhere that you're swimming is only a medium of transportation, and anywhere you need to go to fight or talk to NPCs is either in caves that the water can't reach (like they already did in Vashj'ir), or in sealed-off domes.

[rpdrichard]

If you or anyone else thinks a fully optional zone is one of the main reasons Cataclysm was a poor expansion you need to go outside. That's among the most ill-informed criticism I've ever heard of an expansion.

It was a wholly panned zone, but its beautifully made and incredibly important in terms of lore.

Anyway, I too avoid underwater stuff, but in WoW in 2017, water stops being a real threat. So many tools we have now to increase swim speed.

My bad in the way I put it. I said it´s one, Cataclysm has so many reasons to be considered the worst WoW expansion that it can easily be taken as a manual of how not do an expansion.

I never felt threatened by underwater zones in WoW, no matter all the tools we have to increase swim speed, it feels like anything takes forever to be done down there.

[Soon-TM]

Levelling there and not being able to use neither blizzard nor flamestrike was incredibly annoying. Still, I've returned time and time again to Vash'jir, but only because Hyjal blows even harder (OMG FIREZ EVERY WHEAR CATACLYSM IZ COMMIN').

[ComputerNerd]

Vashjir is arguably the most expansive and beautiful zone in the game. Examine how big it is and how it operates in multiple dimensions. Yet everyone hates it.
Its because its underwater.

Its hard to make a good underwater zone, but I hoped they will try. Some of the new tech should help, but regardless people are adverse to the third axis when leveling.

Which is ironic because they all cry about not having flying lol.

Saying "everyone" is simply wrong.

I said I liked the theme, I just didn't like the mechanics which were contrary to what the combat has actually been designed around.
Particularly when it comes to movement.

[ohwell]

Uhgggg I hated farming in Vash'jir. How high is that Herb/Ore. Is it on the sea floor, is it on that coral shelf, or the next coral shelf up, is it in that sea cave, or the sea cave below that one... Hell no, I'd never want another Underwater Zone.

They already fixed that problem in game. If a node is above you there's an up arrow or down for below and if it is in a cave it is grayed out(or if it is outside a cave and you're in one.

[nyc81991]

I think the best middle ground is to have "Underwater zones" but inside a dome and a couple actually in the Water but with fun new mechanics to make it enjoyable.

[Shadowsgrace]

They already fixed that problem in game. If a node is above you there's an up arrow or down for below and if it is in a cave it is grayed out(or if it is outside a cave and you're in one.

Doesn't help as much as you'd think it does in a Water zone. There were multiple tiers of Coral Reef in Vash'jir. so yes while the Node has the arrow saying above or below.... it didn't help if there were 3 shelves above you that you had to search for find the node. and Vash'jir also had many sea caves, some under other ones, so pointing down didn't always mean it was easy to get to either.

[rhorle]

Doesn't help as much as you'd think it does in a Water zone. There were multiple tiers of Coral Reef in Vash'jir. so yes while the Node has the arrow saying above or below.... it didn't help if there were 3 shelves above you that you had to search for find the node. and Vash'jir also had many sea caves, some under other ones, so pointing down didn't always mean it was easy to get to either.

And that is a problem how? You don't know where something is so you have to search for it. The travesty.

[notraakaakaa]

I hope they do not have this.. or at least have as optional.

[Deleted]

I would be fine with it if it would not contain swimming around, it was so awful when cata hit. If they want to add a zone under water then just make us walk on the bottom of the ocean, i know it wouldn`t make any sense since we are under water and all but i would not mind if there would be no swimming and we can only use the bottom of the ocean.Might aswell give us helmets and put us into the cosmos and we can quest there.

[Eurhetemec]

Having played a bunch of MMOs with significant amounts of underwater nonsense over the years, I have to say: fuck no.

WoW's underwater stuff has never been good. At best, it's been bearable. At worst, well, completely awful. WoW is not a game designed for the 3D combat of underwater. The view is wrong, the way spells and abilities work is wrong, the movement controls are wrong, and so on. The minimap and locating quests/quest NPCs/etc. is particularly awful. (yes, even after the changes)

Other games tried to do better - GW2 for example. They failed.

The only way they could fix this, as far as I can see, if to have it so you walked on the bottom (with an infinite air supply), with maybe a "return to surface" button that made you blow your diving weights or use magic and go to the surface (ignoring the bends etc. ofc). Then you could have an underwater zone that was basically aesthetic, and not a just a terrible version of non-underwater zone.

Apart from that, though, no. Brief underwater excursions? The odd quest-chain underwater? Fine. Entire zones? No.

[Oneirophobia]

What I don't understand is why people who couldn't handle underwater combat thought it necessary to fight things 5 miles above the seafloor.

Never at any point do you need to leave the seafloor to fight stuff for quests, and combat basically becomes land combat.


It's also funny that the majority of people I see complaining about underwater zones built around being able to swim everywhere also HATE doing content without being able to fly.

Swimming in Vash'jir is literally flying in this game. Nothing important changes. If you're a druid, your swim form is even faster than flight.


Having said that, Blizz is getting pretty creative with skyboxes so I think it's possible we may see underwater stuff in which the only indication you're underwater is the skybox, similar to Helheim.

[Konteil]

im probably one of the few that actually liked vashjir so im ok with it

[rpdrichard]

What I don't understand is why people who couldn't handle underwater combat thought it necessary to fight things 5 miles above the seafloor.

Never at any point do you need to leave the seafloor to fight stuff for quests, and combat basically becomes land combat.


It's also funny that the majority of people I see complaining about underwater zones built around being able to swim everywhere also HATE doing content without being able to fly.

Swimming in Vash'jir is literally flying in this game. Nothing important changes. If you're a druid, your swim form is even faster than flight.


Having said that, Blizz is getting pretty creative with skyboxes so I think it's possible we may see underwater stuff in which the only indication you're underwater is the skybox, similar to Helheim.

You know the reason and the main difference, speed. Besides you never fight in the air, while fighting underwater, specially as melee, is among the worst things in WoW.

[Oneirophobia]

I feel the same as this person. Never understood the hate behind underwater zones.

It's virtually a meme. I think it originally started with Ocarina of Time's water temple.

- - - Updated - - -

You know the reason and the main difference, speed. Besides you never fight in the air, while fighting underwater, specially as melee, is among the worst things in WoW.

As I specifically said, fight on the seafloor! There is no reason to fight in the middle of the water column. Are there quest mobs up there? Sure! But there are more along the seafloor. You can walk on the damn bottom and everything.

As for speed, your swim speed in Vashj'ir is mounted speed on land, meaning you can move as fast as your mount would on land without actually being mounted. You move faster in vashj'ir unmounted than you do on land.

[Eurhetemec]

Never at any point do you need to leave the seafloor to fight stuff for quests, and combat basically becomes land combat.

That's straightforwardly untrue in both Vash'jr and in the Legion undersea stuff, though it's closer to true for Legion.

It's also funny that the majority of people I see complaining about underwater zones built around being able to swim everywhere also HATE doing content without being able to fly.

Swimming in Vash'jir is literally flying in this game. Nothing important changes. If you're a druid, your swim form is even faster than flight.

You have some figures to support this "most people who hate swimming love flying"? I'd love to see them. Otherwise that seems like an arse-pull of a claim.

One very important thing does change - you have to fight in mid-air, against mobs who may be coming in from literally any angle, with a terrible camera and most of your abilities not autofacing. It's particularly awful for melees.

Having said that, Blizz is getting pretty creative with skyboxes so I think it's possible we may see underwater stuff in which the only indication you're underwater is the skybox, similar to Helheim.

I think that's more likely/doable.

It's virtually a meme. I think it originally started with Ocarina of Time's water temple.

Ecco the Dolphin was freakin' people out with underwater stuff long before Ocarina of Time. Most people don't enjoy the feeling of being deep underwater. Which is fine if you're leveraging that effect to create fear/horror/dread, but if you're trying to have a "jolly questing zone", it's not workable.

It's not a "meme", either - it's human psychology. Some people are fine, but that's not a huge proportion.

[ohwell]

Doesn't help as much as you'd think it does in a Water zone. There were multiple tiers of Coral Reef in Vash'jir. so yes while the Node has the arrow saying above or below.... it didn't help if there were 3 shelves above you that you had to search for find the node. and Vash'jir also had many sea caves, some under other ones, so pointing down didn't always mean it was easy to get to either.

Once again that's a personal problem with you being unable to decipher an easily decipherable solution they put in game. If it was on a certain tier you'd be indicated that it was. As you rose or descended to the tier it would change if it was the correct tier. Finding them is not the problem. You are the problem.

[Oneirophobia]

That's straightforwardly untrue in both Vash'jr and in the Legion undersea stuff, though it's closer to true for Legion.

It isn't untrue, go re-do Vashj'ir and only swim around when you need to move between quest objectives. No the bombing run doesn't count as swimming, you're on a track.

I never mentioned anything about Legion aquatic questing but you can shoe-horn that into the post to have something to argue against if you wish.

You have some figures to support this "most people who hate swimming love flying"? I'd love to see them. Otherwise that seems like an arse-pull of a claim.

You want sources? Posting people's post history will probably net me an infraction, sift through their history if you want convincing.

you have to fight in mid-air, against mobs who may be coming in from literally any angle, with a terrible camera and most of your abilities not autofacing. It's particularly awful for melees.

No you don't, stay on the seafloor.

Ecco the Dolphin was freakin' people out with underwater stuff long before Ocarina of Time. Most people don't enjoy the feeling of being deep underwater. Which is fine if you're leveraging that effect to create fear/horror/dread, but if you're trying to have a "jolly questing zone", it's not workable.

Vashj'ir was supposed to be a jolly questing zone?
Are you sure you've actually been to the zone?

It's not a "meme", either - it's human psychology. Some people are fine, but that's not a huge proportion.

Is there any posts whatsoever in this thread that say "I don't like water levels because they're scary"? I get that thalassophobia is a thing but I've yet to encounter that as a reason people disliked Ocarina's water temple OR Vashj'ir...

...otherwise that seems like an arse-pull of a claim.