Unrest in Spain: the Spanish government is taking control of the Catalan police force

[Deleted]

You are, again, displacing blame: the Catalan elite is the one undemocratically challenging the rule of law.

Right now this Catalan elite has been voted into power by the people, and if there's something that these politicians have made clear from the start is that they were going for a referendum full steam ahead. Catalans have voted for these guys, and whether they are right or wrong, or neither, the people are partially responsible by proxy. That's what makes all of this particularly difficult to solve.

Several options:

Wait for Brexxit to happen. Rally a massively pro-EU base across the nation meanwhile. Argue that progress is looking over across the pyrenees. That Spain is the 4th economic power of the union. That they need to sit where the decisions are made, along with the France-Germany axis. That the issue of sovereignty is not about how to fracture it. But that further integration into Europe necessitates that sovereignty be transferred towards the EU in selected areas. And that they should be a decisive partner in a position of European leadership, instead of the usual "EU told us to do this and that". Optional: rally the same idea in Portugal (they have their differences, but their interests often align) and present a pan-Iberian union in common interests; not necessarily a merge of countries: just a political block much like V4.

That's taking into account quite a few variables that don't really mesh with the weak EU we have today, namely that a lot of countries would have to agree to certain terms only to silence a small region of one of their members. In Spain especially, EU confidence is six feet under among the population (voter turnout in EU elections is abysmal), and while it may be a noble goal in spirit, where does it leave the Catalan region in the grand scheme of things? Part of an even larger and centralized entity with even more power to silence their voices. Also, the EU forming certain power blocks won't sit well with other smaller peripheral countries, and the EU might end up solving a small problem and ending up with a huge one.

Prep up a nation-wide party with the promise of such a constitutional reform. This could be Podemos, but it comes with a thousand strings attached, as they're just another protest party. Or it could be the socialists, which want to federalize the country already, but their support for the king makes it all a bit complicated.
Nevertheless, the will to have the possibility is not just a Catalan sentiment: many people across the country share the idea (some have posted in the thread). Modern Spain is a young country; they're yet to make any serious change to their constitution, and are still testing the waters of what these freedoms mean. It takes time and effort (unlike what the Catalan government are doing today, which is speedy route and 0 effort: just ignore that the rule of law exists).

Possibly the most reasoned approach overall, and if there had been a situation like this in the first place probably none of all this would have happened. Constitutional reform is inevitable in the long term, and it should have been tackled earlier. What I'm not so sure about is the omission of the PP from all of this, which unfortunately is the most voted party in the country and we all know how "flexible" they are when sharing power and negotiating. It's a bit of a deadlock really: It can't happen with them and it can't happen without them.

Wait it out and forget. Eventually the economy will get better, and the central government will go back to their periodic granting of privileges and concessions to Catalonia.
They're special in that they waited for their dictator to die peacefully. And that was a terrible regime; surely they can wait for this one to get better.
Remarkably, they didn't even break with the old regime: they passed a law that worked within the Francoist regime to abolish the other Francoist laws, and then let the Francoist heir (the King, named by Franco himself) call for the referendum on the constitution. They called it "from the law to the law through the law". They like their laws, and they like not breaking them. I suspect this is why their constitution is funny in that in conflates the peoples with the nation, and the regions with the nationalities; but it's remarkably progressive anyway.

I think they should take the high road and go with the first. But my guess is they'll try the second, and revert on the last.

That might work if the economy really gets better fast. Last week the Spanish government took out a 100 million loan to pay the pensioners, not a great sign of economic recovery from the looks of it. Unemployment is catastrophically high with no signs of improving. The housing market is slowly creeping into another bubble, largely driven by foreign investment/speculation and shooting the prices (especially rental) through the roof. People with careers in STEM and the likes are literally fleeing the country since investment in research and development has been simply eradicated. There's also an aging population that will heavily burden the health and pensions system increasingly over the next few years. I hope I'm wrong and it does get better, but the prospect is pretty bleak right now.

Alternatively, the Spanish government could agree to a popular vote that could involve:

1 - Leave everything as it is.
2 - Better economic deal for Catalonia overall, and the exclusion of the Spanish government from all "cultural" decisions like language etc. The previous gutted Estatut could be a starting point.
3 - Carry on with independence.

Everybody knows what option would win, and it would probably end this once and for all for years to come. Even if it's ultimately smoke and mirrors (the independence option isn't legal so it's moot), it would undoubtedly calm a huge part of the population for a comparatively small compromise on behalf of Spain: A bit more cash and don't touch the language.

[Deleted]

spain was union started by kingdoms of leon,castille and aragon check your facts

Ergh... if you mean arranged with marriages under the threat of invasion? Sure, because the smaller kindgoms could do much to resist.

Your facts reveal alot of disregard for history.

Sure, it was all roses and goodwill. Sure. That's why there's resentment till this day. xD

[Ianus]

Ergh... if you mean arranged with marriages under the threat of invasion? Sure, because the smaller kindgoms could do much to resist.

Your facts reveal alot of disregard for history.

Sure, it was all roses and goodwill. Sure. That's why there's resentment till this day. xD

and whats your point my point is fact spain was formed by union in marriages

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and whats your point my point is fact spain was formed by union in marriages and it was not forced because king of aragon didnt have heirs it was common practice..cause they didnt want to succession war for crown so they settled to agreement who didnt have male heirs would inherit the crown

[Cynep]

Democracy in action. "Your referendums mean nothing, we have the brute force to shut you up". Also, how long before they find Russian influence and long hand of the Kremlin in it?

You know, Catalonia in Spain is in similar situation to Donbass in Ukraine: the richest region in the country (yeah I know, Basques would object) with different people living there; difference is maybe even bigger than between Russians and Ukrainians. But Catalonia has no Russia to perform a false flag invasion while spreading propaganda about a non-existing "civil" war... so, Catalonia is doomed to remain in Spain IMHO.

[Deleted]

and whats your point my point is fact spain was formed by union in marriages

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and whats your point my point is fact spain was formed by union in marriages and it was not forced because king of aragon didnt have heirs it was common practice..cause they didnt want to succession war for crown so they settled to agreement who didnt have male heirs would inherit the crown

A "forced" union is not a union. And why do you think he had no children? I am shocked that some people think everyone was this good natured back then. This was war in a world without UN/NATO. These expansions were made through force. It was either you marry and join willingly or we will invade you anyway. If you agree we give you some bonuses, if you don't we murder and torture you and your family.

Only way to be safe would be to have the church recognize you or have a powerful ally. Smaller states would either submit or be destroyed and conquered when there was a clearly bigger power nearby.

Now, i can accept that maybe some were happy with not being annihilated and joining in. But i'm sure most weren't happy to lose their sovereignty, especially when the cultural differences were more pronounced.

To summarize, my point is that no, it wasn't a union in practice. It *still* isnt a union in practice.

[Ianus]

A "forced" union is not a union. And why do you think he had no children? I am shocked that some people think everyone was this good natured back then. This was war in a world without UN/NATO. These expansions were made through force. It was either you marry and join willingly or we will invade you anyway. If you agree we give you some bonuses, if you don't we murder and torture you and your family.

Only way to be safe would be to have the church recognize you or have a powerful ally. Smaller states would either submit or be destroyed and conquered when there was a clearly bigger power nearby.

Now, i can accept that maybe some were happy with not being annihilated and joining in. But i'm sure most weren't happy to lose their sovereignty, especially when the cultural differences were more pronounced.

To summarize, my point is that no, it wasn't a union in practice. It *still* isnt a union in practice.

you have a flaw because pope threatened to any christian kingdom that attacks other christian kindom until reconquista is over and at the time granada was still a threat for 30 years.. so your theory is flawed.. funniest thing is.. it was king of aragon that inherited castille crown thats why spains flag has aragons colors lel

[Haven]

You know, Catalonia in Spain is in similar situation to Donbass in Ukraine: the richest region in the country (yeah I know, Basques would object) with different people living there; difference is maybe even bigger than between Russians and Ukrainians. But Catalonia has no Russia to perform a false flag invasion while spreading propaganda about a non-existing "civil" war... so, Catalonia is doomed to remain in Spain IMHO.

Well except that there was no coup in Spain

[Deleted]

you have a flaw because pope threatened to any christian kingdom that attacks other christian kindom until reconquista is over and at the time granada was still a threat for 30 years.. so your theory is flawed.. funniest thing is.. it was king of aragon that inherited castille crown thats why spains flag has aragons colors lel

I'm not talking about Aragon alone. This is an analysis of Spain in general. It's not just 2 states. I did give the exception, so theres no flaw. It was all palacian intrigue and war. The church was a deterrent but it didn't stop them completely if they really wanted something (they themselves would possibly lose the support of the church, but if you become powerful enough it doesn't matter). As you know, it's really easy to fabricate reasons to wage war.

Anyways, the proof of what i'm saying has always been visible. Be it terrorist attacks, civil war or separatist movements.

[Animaneth]

ITT: Some people showing that they learnt history from the Crusader Kings game.

[Ianus]

I'm not talking about Aragon alone. This is an analysis of Spain in general. It's not just 2 states. I did give the exception, so theres no flaw. It was all palacian intrigue and war. The church was a deterrent but it didn't stop them completely if they really wanted something (they themselves would possibly lose the support of the church, but if you become powerful enough it doesn't matter). As you know, it's really easy to fabricate reasons to wage war.

Anyways, the proof of what i'm saying has always been visible. Be it terrorist attacks, civil war or separatist movements.

that are just marginal groups wanting their 5 mins of fame..same as political parties for their personal gains..

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ITT: Some people showing that they learnt history from the Crusader Kings game.

nope even though i played... i learnt cause i wanted to know all crusades and their contexts

[Deleted]

If every separatist on the planet gets what he wants, we`ll end up with 15000 nations.

Is that really worth it?

[Tackhisis]

Just the fact that you speak a slightly different form of Spanish and have a couple of specific dishes, and you were exploited by a different lord 1,000 years ago doesn't give you the right to the independence. The Spanish minorities should grow up and join the Castilians.

[Lionwoman]

Just the fact that you speak a slightly different form of Spanish and have a couple of specific dishes, and you were exploited by a different lord 1,000 years ago doesn't give you the right to the independence. The Spanish minorities should grow up and join the Castilians.

*Laughs in catalan*

Oh, boy.
You have no idea.

Catalan is a recognized language. Valencian is a dialect. Andalusian is a dialect. Italian is a language. Spanish is a language. Catalan is a language. Face it.

[Zoibert the Bear]

*Laughs in catalan*

Oh, boy.
You have no idea.

Catalan is a recognized language. Valencian is a dialect. Andalusian is a dialect. Italian is a language. Spanish is a language. Catalan is a language. Face it.

As a Basque myself, I've had to deal with people saying Euskara is a dialect, go figure...

Ignorance is everywhere.

*Laughts in Basque*

[Lionwoman]

As a Basque myself, I've had to deal with people saying Euskara is a dialect, go figure...

Ignorance is everywhere.

*Laughts in Basque*

I can relate...
but with basque is incomprehensible because has no related latin nor germanic languages. So it makes you the urge of ask them... from what language?

[Tackhisis]

Catalan is a recognized language.

Pray, tell us "my little brother died from hunger", in that 'language'.

[Lionwoman]

Pray, tell us "my little brother died from hunger", in that language*.

surprise: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalan_language

"El meu germà petit* va morir de fam*"
*would also work:
"germanet" instead of "germà petit"
"gana" instead of "fam" but "fam" is used more for terrible hunger.

Why do you want that specific sentence?

[Deleted]

Catalonia isn't going to be independent. It'll be another province of the EU, some of the sovereignty it ought to hold in it's Parliament will be delegated to Brussels.

So why do you exchange one rule which ignores your interests for another one... I don't know. Why bother.

What is Catalonia going to do with the ''independence'' it'll attain next Monday? Change a law or two about language and some minor cultural issues?!
Pft.

[Orgroxx]

I can relate...
but with basque is incomprehensible because has no related latin nor germanic languages. So it makes you the urge of ask them... from what language?

Seeing as it's considered one of the oldest (if not THE oldest) language in western europe, what with it predating the earliest indo-european tongues, I'm going to go with Caveman or Neanderthal. (/sarcasm, obviously.)

I actually have a lot of fun finding out which languages are connected. Like how Finnish, Estonian and Hungarian all share the same root as members of the Uralic language family.

[ButterBeast]

Catalonia isn't going to be independent. It'll be another province of the EU, some of the sovereignty it ought to hold in it's Parliament will be delegated to Brussels.

So why do you exchange one rule which ignores your interests for another one... I don't know. Why bother.

What is Catalonia going to do with the ''independence'' it'll attain next Monday? Change a law or two about language and some minor cultural issues?!
Pft.

you might want to look up the word sovereign.