What the word toxic does not mean

[Theodarzna]

I always ask, Toxic to what? When someone says X, Y or Z is "Toxic".

Sidenote, @veehro is the only reason I post here.

[Doctor Funkenstein]

Only because something makes sense in your head doesn't mean it reflects the reality perceived by others.

True, but that doesn't apply here. Your inability to process it notwithstanding.

[Ol Scratch]

And what is my thought process exactly?

That would be the problem.

Ouch! XD

So true tho.

[Lilija]

True, but that doesn't apply here. Your inability to process it notwithstanding.

Shame that The Jabberwock isn't with us anymore. Just for the record, I had nothing to do with it. People have the right to express any thought they want no matter how dumb it is. In fact, if you keep speaking to people who try to be offensive they often start doing something idiotic enough (like trying to offend random people because reasons) to get in trouble. So I guess I am guilty of provoking this troubled person. Tho after a glance at their post history it seem they had issues with emotion control. So I still will stand by my initial assessment of projection.

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Ouch! XD

So true tho.

And what would that be exactly?

[Antiganon]

And what would that be exactly?

The implication is that you have no thought process, and by extension, are incapable of independent thought.

[Lilija]

The implication is that you have no thought process, and by extension, are incapable of independent thought.

I know what was the implication. I wanted to read the reasoning behind it Or rather to see the thought process that lead to that implication. It could have been potentially a quite fun thing to read.

[Ol Scratch]

People have the right to express any thought they want no matter how dumb it is.

We know, you've made that clear with your own "thoughts." And you got called out on it, and are now trying to act like you're on the high horse. It's hilarious. Well, I mean, it's embarrassing for you, but hilarious for everyone else. Especially now that you're trying to act like you knew it all along.

And what would that be exactly?

See above.

The best punchlines are when the jokes don't even know they are one.

Also, super classy bragging about someone else getting banned. You're a winner all around!

[Lilija]

We know, you've made that clear with your own "thoughts." And you got called out on it, and are now trying to act like you're on the high horse. It's hilarious. Well, I mean, it's embarrassing for you, but hilarious for everyone else. Especially now that you're trying to act like you knew it all along.

Given I was mostly asking questions, I really wonder, what kind of reprehensible thoughts did I present to get the label "you people" and few other epithets that were thrown my way.

Also, super classy bragging about someone else getting banned. You're a winner all around!

I can't help it that it made me smile (hey, I'm just a human) tho I really am against banning people for words. And I really wanted to carry on with the discussion cause it was fun. But I see you want to fill in the empty spot

[Trassk]

won't somebody think of the thin-skinned people!

don't you think of them all the time?

[Otimus]

Toxicity in a community means that the behavior of the people at large playing the game is in such a negative way that it turns people off from something. At least that's what it means in the way that it is used by people for that purpose, like game discussion. It's a real thing that happens, and it's why they combat it. Because it decreases sales and user involvement in a product.

It's not out of some nonsense of "carebears" or "PC police" or whatever, it's because a game's community is literal so bad and so poisonous to the end user, that they've decided to either not play it at all, or no longer play it because people actively are trying to ruin the experience for others.

[Deleted]

don't you think of them all the time?

My concern is part-time at best.

[Lilija]

Toxicity in a community means that the behavior of the people at large playing the game is in such a negative way that it turns people off from something. At least that's what it means in the way that it is used by people for that purpose, like game discussion. It's a real thing that happens, and it's why they combat it. Because it decreases sales and user involvement in a product.

It's not out of some nonsense of "carebears" or "PC police" or whatever, it's because a game's community is literal so bad and so poisonous to the end user, that they've decided to either not play it at all, or no longer play it because people actively are trying to ruin the experience for others.

It is true that someone people's behavior can be incredibly annoying and makes people not wanna play the game. But I think the way devs try to handle toxicity is wrong. They try to tackle the issue with some "social engineering" or treating people like children. The thing is they only focus on the symptoms instead of the reasons. You cannot stop people from expressing their emotions. Gaming is connected with emotional reactions - especially competitive. This is natural.

The whole trick is proper matchmaking. In order for the multiplayer gameplay to be enjoyable you need to play with people who have similar expectations towards the game and hopefully comparable skill level. If skill levels and expectations get mixed too much there will be tension. And no matter how hard you will beat people down telling them how bad and mean they are and cannot help it. To avoid frustration that pushes people away from the game you need to understand the full scope a reasons that lead to that frustration.

[Deleted]

conservatives are literally only emotionless vessel

Just going to leave this here. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=djfDZrm9KZs&t=124s
You americans are funny creatures. You believe the crap you spout about left and right and have no idea what either actually is.

[Deleted]

It is true that someone people's behavior can be incredibly annoying and makes people not wanna play the game. But I think the way devs try to handle toxicity is wrong. They try to tackle the issue with some "social engineering" or treating people like children. The thing is they only focus on the symptoms instead of the reasons. You cannot stop people from expressing their emotions. Gaming is connected with emotional reactions - especially competitive. This is natural.

The whole trick is proper matchmaking. In order for the multiplayer gameplay to be enjoyable you need to play with people who have similar expectations towards the game and hopefully comparable skill level. If skill levels and expectations get mixed too much there will be tension. And no matter how hard you will beat people down telling them how bad and mean they are and cannot help it. To avoid frustration that pushes people away from the game you need to understand the full scope a reasons that lead to that frustration.

The easiest way, and quite frankly the only correct way, is to punish griefing. Purposely throwing games or purposely acting counter to the gameplay. If a person is calling you a retard but still playing well, quite frankly, it's not effecting your game, grow up and take the lumps.

[Fitheach]

I think it is deeply problematic and itself a toxic attitude that reflects the sheer difficulty inclusive politics and the cause of justice in this world will be. There are so many toxic people whom need to be reformed.

[Lilija]

The easiest way, and quite frankly the only correct way, is to punish griefing. Purposely throwing games or purposely acting counter to the gameplay. If a person is calling you a retard but still playing well, quite frankly, it's not effecting your game, grow up and take the lumps.

Punishing griefing won't stop people from doing it. It will only make people who do want to do it more and they will find a way.

The problem is when games cause frustration and it raises so high that people start acting like angry kids. And trust me, absolutely everyone has that in them. We simply have different thresholds. But everyone is capable of just "losing it".

Also, it has been proven is psychology, negative motivation doesn't go very far. Sure, it works in short term but in long term people simply stop carrying about it and eventually get resistant to it. Positive motivation works much better.

Plus maybe it would be a good idea to figure out why people tend to "lose it" in certain game modes and look for a solution there. Maybe minimizing the stress level would be actually a good idea for solving toxicity issues.

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I think it is deeply problematic and itself a toxic attitude that reflects the sheer difficulty inclusive politics and the cause of justice in this world will be. There are so many toxic people whom need to be reformed.

You cannot do a single thing to reform people. People can change only if they really want to change. You can give people suggestions but beyond that you cannot force them to change.

[Ahovv]

Punishing griefing won't stop people from doing it. It will only make people who do want to do it more and they will find a way.

The problem is when games cause frustration and it raises so high that people start acting like angry kids. And trust me, absolutely everyone has that in them. We simply have different thresholds. But everyone is capable of just "losing it".

Also, it has been proven is psychology, negative motivation doesn't go very far. Sure, it works in short term but in long term people simply stop carrying about it and eventually get resistant to it. Positive motivation works much better.

Plus maybe it would be a good idea to figure out why people tend to "lose it" in certain game modes and look for a solution there. Maybe minimizing the stress level would be actually a good idea for solving toxicity issues.

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You cannot do a single thing to reform people. People can change only if they really want to change. You can give people suggestions but beyond that you cannot force them to change.

I wonder if you even realize that throughout your full explanation there, you didn't actually offer a viable solution. You just dismissed the idea of punishing griefers without anything else aside from "hey maybe we should lower the stress level." You can't aim for that in game design, especially competitive gaming like Dota 2. If the game is intended to be relaxing and casual, then obviously you won't have a high stress level. But that's irrelevant.

Griefers are and should be punished. And there is nothing to suggest that punishing them makes them do it more. In fact, there are people who would do it every single fucking match if you didn't punish them.

[Lilija]

I wonder if you even realize that throughout your full explanation there, you didn't actually offer a viable solution.

Because unlike other "social behaviour experts" on internet I don't know the viable solution? I just point out what doesn't work.

You just dismissed the idea of punishing griefers without anything else aside from "hey maybe we should lower the stress level." You can't aim for that in game design, especially competitive gaming like Dota 2. If the game is intended to be relaxing and casual, then obviously you won't have a high stress level. But that's irrelevant.

Griefers are and should be punished. And there is nothing to suggest that punishing them makes them do it more. In fact, there are people who would do it every single fucking match if you didn't punish them.

Well, when it comes to really competitive games it seems that when you do it with random people there will always be problems. As I've said before, when there is conflict of skill level and gaming goals there will be negative emotions. People dislike to feel that their time is being wasted and that is when they act out. And more often than not the actions are not intended but simply acted out on an impuls (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanlon's_razor). Those who intend to be assholes are minority and will do that no matter what.

So if we take into account that people most often do stupid things out of frustration, what do you think punishment will cause them to feel? More frustration -> more stupid behavior.

Yesterday I've listened to interesting thoughts of one of Polish youtubers (an older guy) about toxicity in Overwatch. He pointed out that it is an issue but actually had some really interesting proposals because instead of focusing on how to punish people he tried to understand why people act in certain manner. The baseline was that the game stops being enjoyable (and causes frustration) when your personal effort means little for you personal progression and you are constantly punished by how bad other people in your team are. And while he personally doesn't act that frustration out in game he noticed he is acting it out on his family. And therefor he doesn't play OV much anymore. This is just one opinion but I find certain validity in it because it tries to tackle the whole picture and our own flaws as human beings instead of just pushing the blame "on those evil people over there". Imagine that people are not assholes without a reason. If you really want something to change in that manner it would be good to understand that reason instead of looking for the easy solution that doesn't require any work. Those generally don't exist.

This is the main issue of random matchmaking. The only way players can influence it on their own is by playing with friends or other organized groups. It's the same reason why no one pugs the hardest content in WoW until it can be heavily overgeared - it would be so frustrating that no one in their right mind would be willing to give any effort.

[Ahovv]

Because unlike other "social behaviour experts" on internet I don't know the viable solution? I just point out what doesn't work.


Well, when it comes to really competitive games it seems that when you do it with random people there will always be problems. As I've said before, when there is conflict of skill level and gaming goals there will be negative emotions. People dislike to feel that their time is being wasted and that is when they act out. And more often than not the actions are not intended but simply acted out on an impuls (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanlon's_razor). Those who intend to be assholes are minority and will do that no matter what.

So if we take into account that people most often do stupid things out of frustration, what do you think punishment will cause them to feel? More frustration -> more stupid behavior.

Yesterday I've listened to interesting thoughts of one of Polish youtubers (an older guy) about toxicity in Overwatch. He pointed out that it is an issue but actually had some really interesting proposals because instead of focusing on how to punish people he tried to understand why people act in certain manner. The baseline was that the game stops being enjoyable (and causes frustration) when your personal effort means little for you personal progression and you are constantly punished by how bad other people in your team are. And while he personally doesn't act that frustration out in game he noticed he is acting it out on his family. And therefor he doesn't play OV much anymore. This is just one opinion but I find certain validity in it because it tries to tackle the whole picture and our own flaws as human beings instead of just pushing the blame "on those evil people over there". Imagine that people are not assholes without a reason. If you really want something to change in that manner it would be good to understand that reason instead of looking for the easy solution that doesn't require any work. Those generally don't exist.

This is the main issue of random matchmaking. The only way players can influence it on their own is by playing with friends or other organized groups. It's the same reason why no one pugs the hardest content in WoW until it can be heavily overgeared - it would be so frustrating that no one in their right mind would be willing to give any effort.

The specific reason why someone is a cunt doesn't matter to me. They're one person out of thousands I'll interact with. I'm not interested in spending time out of my day to fix every person I come across.

So yeah, I understand your angle here. But in practice it doesn't change anything, and I still don't see any solution, be it simple or hard. So I'll stick with just writing off toxic cunts and moving on with my life. It's the most pragmatic solution for me, and the least stressful.

[Thoughtful Trolli]

so not only did you identified the camp that missuses the word and is hypocritical about it but you're also not bothered by the double standard or that the word is often used to punish consumers who offer negative reviews on products in the gaming industry or simply dissagree with political opinions of said camp.

Interesting

The only thing toxic here is how you failed to post the definition of toxic, you just made a link to it.

You're toxic. Into the garbage with you.