Unrest in Spain: the Spanish government is taking control of the Catalan police force

[ranzino]

...

"Democracy" doesn't mean you can violate the constitution or any other law. What the Catalonians are doing, is a dictatorial move.

then hurry and arrest all the ~300 million people in US, for they are in clear violation of the might and right of the british crown, for centuries !!

[Zecora]

Sad to see a european government using force to stop a referendum. Simply ignoring/denying it wouldn't have done it?

People will never forget this incident, good job.

Precisely what I have been saying. There's never been a majority in favour of secession in Catalonia, now there probably will be. Well done.

[Deleted]

What the Catalonians are doing, is a dictatorial move.

Get a grip.
What the Catalan people are doing is protest, and putting papers on a box.
The ones running the show, breaking the constitutional order, and ignoring the judicial power, is the government of Catalonia. Not its peoples.

[Zandalarian Paladin]

Yep, initially I thought that maybe both sides were a little bit overreacting.

This morning, I cannot possibly support spain. What is this? Suppressing votes through violence will hurt the relationship between spain and catalonia, perhaps driving even moderates to vote in favor of leaving. Is Spain stupid?

[Deleted]

Precisely what I have been saying. There's never been a majority in favour of secession in Catalonia, now there probably will be. Well done.

Madrid is, then, doing exactly what the secessionists want.
They'll get along just fine: unrest benefits the elite.

[dribbles]

Blaming Juncker for this is quite a stretch.

Is he still busy down the pub? Boozy Sunday lunch maybe? Perhaps he just doesn't give a toss that citizens of his Europe, the elderly, women and children are being shot at yet all they want is a peaceful referendum.

His silence condones the violence and brutality of European security forces against the citizens they are supposed to protect.

[Deleted]

Ripping part of the country? Treason should be met with death.

[Deleted]

Ripping part of the country? Treason should be met with death.

And yet the west supported the same thing with Kosovo and now with the Kurds.
Voting for independence is OKAY if it's inconvenient for our political opponents, but it's unspeakable if it happens to us.

[Puri]

And yet the west supported the same thing with Kosovo and now with the Kurds.
Voting for independence is OKAY if it's inconvenient for our political opponents, but it's unspeakable if it happens to us.

Well, as if this was news. What terrorists are for one side are freedom fighters for others.

[Aggrophobic]

And yet the west supported the same thing with Kosovo and now with the Kurds.
Voting for independence is OKAY if it's inconvenient for our political opponents, but it's unspeakable if it happens to us.

Yeah, hardly the same situation.

[Zelk]

It's always been Rajoy's dream to be called Little Franco

[Valeron]

Sad to see a european government using force to stop a referendum. Simply ignoring/denying it wouldn't have done it?

People will never forget this incident, good job.

yep, this will do the exact opposite of what the Spanish government wants

[Malacrass]

[...] violence will hurt the relationship between spain and catalonia, perhaps driving even moderates to vote in favor of leaving. Is Spain stupid?

I would go even one step further, this act hurts Spain not only internally, but internationally as well. Even if everything stays the same and the rebels seceders are successfully suppressed, this whole act just smells of incompetence, with a healthy dose of third world.

I don't know Rajoy and his politics, but this guy needs to resign if Spain (the country, not the government) wants to keep its dignity.

[Deleted]

A bit of an update:
There are now 337 injured according to the Catalan government; the regional health service claims that they've only aided 91 persons.

If it wasn't enough of an alarming circus, the Catalan government changed the rules in the early hours.
https://elpais.com/elpais/2017/10/01...11_482600.html

The Catalan independence referendum, which was banned by the courts for being unconstitutional, is in infringement of all minimum voting regulations.

One major issue is the fact that 45 minutes prior to the start of the vote, many of the rules of the game had been changed.

Other irregular procedures include: there are opaque ballot boxes, there are no official ballots or envelopes, the electoral census is hosted on online servers, there is no electoral board, and there is no counting system.

Universal census

A few minutes after the vote began, the Catalan government changed the rules by establishing a universal census. Citizens who wish to vote in the referendum may do so at any polling station. The goal was to ensure that the possible closure of voting locations would not affect voters.

This means that the same person can vote two or more times, according to the Spanish Interior Ministry. The spokesman for the Catalan government, Jordi Turull, has asserted that people will only vote once, without giving any further explanations.

No envelopes

No envelopes are required, and ballots printed at home will be accepted.

Envelopes are used to ensure that within each envelope there is only one secret ballot. If more than one ballot appears inside an envelope, the vote is considered void. Without envelopes,someone could slide more than one ballot into the box, if there is a momentary lack of supervision.

Voter control

At around noon, the regional government activated a blog to help people vote online. Supported by the platform Wordpress, it was created so that anyone unable to vote in person might do so until 11:59 pm. The website has since been taken down.

Throughout the morning, the census app intermittently lost the signal. It was housed in Amazon servers but the Spanish government has since managed to cancel it.

At polling stations, voter names and IDs were being written down by hand rather than checked off a printed list. And it was unclear who was in charge of voting supervision.

No international guarantees

The United Nations, on June 26, said it was ruling out being an election observer to the referendum.

[Deleted]

So now x10 more people will want Independence...winning hearts n minds with batons..

[Zandalarian Paladin]

I would go even one step further, this act hurts Spain not only internally, but internationally as well. Even if everything stays the same and the rebels seceders are successfully suppressed, this whole act just smells of incompetence, with a healthy dose of third world.

I don't know Rajoy and his politics, but this guy needs to resign if Spain (the country, not the government) wants to keep its dignity.

Absolutely. I'm not from Spain, but I can guarantee you that this - not Catalan making an illegal referendum - is on everyone's lips.

That's the kind of mistake you cannot get back up from. Not this.

[kasuke06]

the winning move was not to play.

they should have pointed out that their polling areas were not up to snuff before, let the votes occur, and then they have an out to not accept it under the guise of wholly valid security concerns.

This way though... like people think the US has voter suppression?

[Deleted]

Turns left and right are a fickle thing. For example, the entirely of Spain voted majority to the left, which only served to strengthen PP and eventually gave Rajoy the presidency.
The internal composition of JxSi is not exactly left, as you probably know: it's a single issue coalition that, yes, has a big republican left component, but is happy having Christian democrats, and center-right liberals among them: mismo perro, diferente collar.

I mean... nationalism is not exactly a left thing for the most part. It can be temporarily dressed with social programs, but it's as anti-equality as it gets, by it's exclusive nature. A very damning exemplification is the role of the non-separatist Catalan person: they're supposed half the population, but can't establish a platform to campaign for NO; they're being excluded from the Catalan "people" as we speak, alienated from their culture. In the same way that the Catalan independentist would claim to be alienated from Spain.
Catalan nationalism is essentially Catalan exceptionalism, and your exposition of what Catalonia could do shows that much: you're imagining a socialist utopia (which is a nice thing to imagine), but the Catalan elite, the ruling class, is still dominated by capitalist markets and center-right liberal policies.
They're happy to break the rule of law that Catalan people voted, massively, in referendum, 40 years ago. If that means so little to them, the welfare state means less.

It is not an Utopia. If Catalonia starts anew the new republic could be much more left winged than what it has been during autonomy. The people with their vote could kick off their corrupt elite and set in motion ways to control the corruption of new goverments. They could, they could also stay at home watching Barça while companies and stablishment set the same rules in a new country. Whatever happens, it will be the catalan people who chooses so.

Independence is not the solution of all problems. It is the chance for the society to fight to solve them. A chance catalan people can't have in Spain, where the hegemony of the Popular Party is very far away from over.

[Malacrass]

So now x10 more people will want Independence...winning hearts n minds with batons..

Ha, of course this is also perfect food for Putin's narrative.

"Our problems aren't unique, check out this shit happening in the heart of Europe ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)"

[Deleted]

I would go even one step further, this act hurts Spain not only internally, but internationally as well. Even if everything stays the same and the rebels seceders are successfully suppressed, this whole act just smells of incompetence, with a healthy dose of third world.

I don't know Rajoy and his politics, but this guy needs to resign if Spain (the country, not the government) wants to keep its dignity.

Your average Christian democrat with a dose of inaction. His presidency is the result of waiting for the other parties to fight it out. Their position with Catalonia is pretty much the same: do nothing, wait for others to rip themselves apart.
Resignation is not in the cards. Yet. But he's less than popular.

The big events are yet to happen, if the Catalan government goes ahead and declares independence in the next few days. Which is not very clear, since the governing coalition is not very stable.
So far, two big parties in Madrid, along with PP, are opposing the referendum, because it's breaking the rule of law, but they all have different approaches to what should be done too.