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  1. #101
    Deleted
    imo its more of an zone design / size issue then the actual no flying issue, Nagrand, Azuna, Frost Ridge for example don't really need flying but Spires of Arak, Suramar, Stormheim, High Mountain would be real nice if you had flying, because those zones look nice when you first get there but for the entire expansion they become more a hassle

  2. #102
    Same as the last two, Blizzard will piss and moan and whine about how hard it is to implement then people bitch at them until they give in and put in a stupid ass achievement requirement for it.

  3. #103
    Buy it for 20k gold once you hit 120.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tonus View Post
    Anyway stop being such an ass fucktard.
    Quote Originally Posted by oblivium666 View Post
    Would you kindly go fuck yourself?

  4. #104
    The Insane draynay's Avatar
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    #4 would be my preference.

    I'm fine with the initial leveling cycle being on the ground, but once I have people at max level and have seen everything with their stupid on the ground shit, then I'd like to play the game the way I want to.

  5. #105
    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    Or maybe just make stuff that isn't so boring and dull that people want to ignore it? Half of the problem is EXACTLY what you just described: Large swaths of land with nothing of interest in it. Or worse: large swaths of land filled with useless trash mobs who only exist to daze and slow you down with nothing of interest while you're there....being dazed and slow with nothing to do but trash the trash mobs.

    The solution isn't to simply remove flight and cram everything into a smaller area, then force people to slog through it. The solution is to make areas that people actually want to interact with. Forcing interaction doesn't make the content good, it just removes the choice.

    The solution is to stop making disposable, weak, super-linear content that gets burned through so quickly.
    What specific ideas do you have that they didn't do in Legion that would help with this?

    As someone who enjoys world content and goes back to do older world content on alts, as well, I'm looking at your points like this:

    -Disposable, burned-through quickly content: WQs seem to answer this (been doing them since launch and still occasionally see ones I haven't done), as well as secret and hidden content, emissary quests, and class/spec quest lines for each class/spec.
    -Super-linear content: All of the launch zones except one end game zone can be done in any order, at any level, and you can start at several different quest hubs in each.
    -Forcing interaction: Just don't do it. Queue for dungeons, BGs, etc. (Dungeons shouldn't be gated behind content, either, which I agree was dumb.)
    -Large swaths of land with nothing of interest in it:

    https://imgur.com/a/SgZsC

    Vs:

    https://imgur.com/a/jnKEm

    In the latter screenshot of roughly the same distance, we have two mountain ranges, a shallows/wetlands area, mountaintop ruins, a ruined academy (that also goes underground), a lake, a stretch of forest, caves, and a Legion invasion. There are dozens of quests and POIs with varying mechanics and goals. In the former, it's a snowy field with a couple trees, one of the four main questing sections of Storm Peaks, where you run around and do a few quests and you're done (quests start at the back near a couple goblins, I believe, and have you run around in the field). (Arguably also not the best pic I could have taken of Storm Peaks, but the others are largely the same in their simplicity per square foot. SP was specifically designed for flying, as per the devs.)

    (I'm also purposefully looking at questing areas and not dramatic areas centered around raid entrances, like ICC. We could do a comparison of that, too, if it would be interesting.)

    What additional, specific ideas would make the latter more challenging, engaging, with more to do and more variety, and what does the former have that gives it more variety, more engaging content, more stuff to do?
    Last edited by Magistrate; 2017-10-01 at 04:28 PM.

  6. #106
    Quote Originally Posted by Magistrate View Post
    What specific ideas do you have that they didn't do in Legion that would help with this?

    As someone who enjoys world content and goes back to do older world content on alts, as well, I'm looking at your points like this:

    -Disposable, burned-through quickly content: WQs seem to answer this (been doing them since launch and still occasionally see ones I haven't done), as well as secret and hidden content.


    -Super-linear content: All of the launch zones except one end game zone can be done in any order, at any level, and you can start at several different quest hubs in each.
    -Forcing interaction: Just don't do it. Queue for dungeons, BGs, etc. (Dungeons shouldn't be gated behind content, either, which I agree was dumb.)
    -Large swaths of land with nothing of interest in it:

    WQs are a good start. World scaling was another good step, but needed to continue to progress with artifact power or iLVL or something to keep it relevant.

    "Just don't do it" doesn't work when critical parts of character progression are locked behind rep or quest progression. Cruicible is a good example of this. Access to mythic dungeons was another.


    Quote Originally Posted by Magistrate View Post
    https://imgur.com/a/SgZsC

    Vs:

    https://imgur.com/a/jnKEm

    In the latter screenshot of roughly the same distance, we have two mountain ranges, a shallows/wetlands area, mountaintop ruins, a ruined academy, a stretch of forest, caves, and a Legion invasion. There are dozens of quests and POIs with varying mechanics and goals. In the former, it's a snowy field with a couple trees, one of the four main questing sections of Storm Peaks. (Arguably also not the best pic I could have taken of Storm Peaks, but the others are largely the same in their simplicity per square foot. SP was specifically designed for flying, as per the devs.)

    What additional, specific ideas would make the latter more challenging, engaging, with more to do and more variety, and what does the former have that gives it more variety, more engaging content, more stuff to do?
    The second area is obviously better, since it would designed using many of the lessons learned since WotLK and areas like Stormpeaks. All I would really like to see is that design taking flight into consideration and using verticality more. And have the same design philosophy of providing more challenges for a player to work around be applied to a character who has flight as one of their tools.

    As it stands, as much more advanced as the second picture is, in terms of design, it's still almost entirely invalidated by the current mechanics of flying. This makes it effectively the same as the first picture. I acknowledge that issue, but I also think that content with a more dense design like the second picture should be possible to build with flight as part of it instead of being almost completely invalidated by it.

    EDIT: Apologies in advance if that seems a little vague. I'm working of 4 hours of sleep due to nearby construction being loud AF. The TLDR version is that I think that Legion's open world design is better in many ways. I just think that it could be better still WITH flying than without. Areas filled with a bunch of pointless trash is still pretty bad, either way, however.
    Last edited by SirCowdog; 2017-10-01 at 04:45 PM.

  7. #107
    Deleted
    If Argus is any indicator they will be going with a combination of:
    - no flying initially
    - teleporters instead of flight paths

  8. #108
    Old God Mirishka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maneo View Post
    This is a burning question on my mind. Although I really enjoyed Legion I enjoyed it so much more once I had flight, but damn if it wasn't one hell of a wait.

    Pre no flight I only had one toon I played, and very little. Post flight being enabled I have 9 toons at max level and play a considerable amount more (this applies for both me and my wife).

    So what are they going to do

    1. Double down on stupid put flight behind some BS achievement and it won't be available till the last half of the expac.
    2. Go full dumb ass and not have flight in the expac (like they intended with WoD)
    3. Have the achievement able to be completed at launch
    4. Flight enabled with the first content patch
    5. Flight being able to be purchased at max level
    6. Flight purchasable at the in game store for 50 bucks.

    I am fine with 3-6 personally.

    I find that not having flight at max level doesn't make the game more immersive or engaging it just adds to the tedium.

    Riding through a zone for the 20th time no different then the previous 19, dealing with WoWs horrible collision mechanics, and trash mobs so tightly packed you have little choice but to engage them even though they offer no threat challenge or reward is not engaging game play it is tedious.

    Here is hoping we get a definite answer come Blizzcon.
    They've said several times over the past couple years that the WoD/Legion model will be the status quo, going forward. Explore the world in a way that doesn't trivialize it, complete quests/milestones, and earn flight.
    Appreciate your time with friends and family while they're here. Don't wait until they're gone to tell them what they mean to you.

  9. #109
    Quote Originally Posted by Maneo View Post
    Personal flight is one of the things for me that really sets WoW apart from other MMOs
    I can name a number of MMOs that includes flying mounts.

    TERA
    Final Fantasy XIV
    Riders of Icarus
    FLYFF
    Champions Online
    DC Universe Online
    Aion
    EverQuest 2
    ArchAge

    Those are just the first games that pops right into mind when I think MMOs with flying in one form or another.
    Be it limited or unlimited, pay with real money or in game currency.
    Don't think any of them are locked behind any achievements or grinds beyond the grind for the in game currency to afford it with the exception of maybe Aion, I think that one you have to reach level cap first.

  10. #110
    Quote Originally Posted by Mirishka View Post
    They've said several times over the past couple years that the WoD/Legion model will be the status quo, going forward. Explore the world in a way that doesn't trivialize it, complete quests/milestones, and earn flight.
    Exploring the world in a way that doesn't trivialize it SHOULD be possible if the world was designed with challenges and obstacles for flying players.

    But I'm ok with earning flight as long as there are a couple of conditions met:

    Flying should have context. In Legion there was never any in-game reason given to explain why flying didn't work. Nor was there any explanation for why it suddenly started working again. Then when it suddenly didn't work on Argus. It was just a big list of tasks and some rhetoric from Blizzard on the forums and in twitter. And a big list of tasks is actually fine, as long as the tasks are baked into the story progression of the expansion. How much more enjoyable would the Pathfinder achievement have been if we were fighting to wrest air superiority from the Legion through a series of story-based quests?

    Flying should be part of the design, and useful for at least some current content. It shouldn't just be a halfassed catchup mechanic for alts. I'm talking on the order of entire zones. If we're going to have no-flying islands, then we should also have flying islands, yeah?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by phealin View Post
    I can name a number of MMOs that includes flying mounts.

    TERA
    Final Fantasy XIV
    Riders of Icarus
    FLYFF
    Champions Online
    DC Universe Online
    Aion
    EverQuest 2
    ArchAge

    Those are just the first games that pops right into mind when I think MMOs with flying in one form or another.
    Be it limited or unlimited, pay with real money or in game currency.
    Don't think any of them are locked behind any achievements or grinds beyond the grind for the in game currency to afford it with the exception of maybe Aion, I think that one you have to reach level cap first.
    The sad part is that Champions, DCUO, and even City of Heroes handled flight better than WoW. And those games are old as sin. DCUO is built for consoles, FFS, and still has more inclusive flight mechanics than WoW.

    FFXIV did it better still. And even the new GW2 expansion is adding mounts that actually add to the gameplay. Blizzard is behind the curve on this issue.
    Last edited by SirCowdog; 2017-10-01 at 05:06 PM.

  11. #111
    Same way. They'll string us along for months and then reluctantly give us flight for a few weeks until they funnel us into an area without flight. They don't want us flying.

  12. #112
    I'm guessing we'll get the same sort of thing as Legion. Flying unlocked through a multi-part meta-achievement. Part 1 completable with launch content. Later and final parts completed when they've added all the planned content to the main expansion area.

    Later pieces of content on some other island/plane/planet with either no flying at all, flying through a new "Pathfinder achievement" or flight without any sort of achievement. Personally I would expect none at all, but if Blizz manage to get enough ideas together that work they might have a zone with flight for everyone.

  13. #113
    Flight should be enabled when the zone enters grind phase. Also for the story phase they could improve the maps so you're not spending a lot of time trying to figure out how to get somewhere (or rather looking it up on Wowhead or watching the route on YouTube). WRT Argus, I know they didn't want to spend the money making it flight ready but they could improve it by adding a few more transporter pads and making the whistle accountwide and maybe reducing its cooldown a bit.

  14. #114
    Flight should only be allowed at the very end of the expansion after you've explored all the zones, grinded all the reps to revered or exalted, and completed a lengthy expansion-long quest chain. Once you've done ALL the content, then you can use flight at the end of the expansion to level your alts faster.

    While the content is relevant, flight should NEVER be allowed again.

  15. #115
    Quote Originally Posted by nlc View Post
    Flight should be enabled when the zone enters grind phase. Also for the story phase they could improve the maps so you're not spending a lot of time trying to figure out how to get somewhere (or rather looking it up on Wowhead or watching the route on YouTube). WRT Argus, I know they didn't want to spend the money making it flight ready but they could improve it by adding a few more transporter pads and making the whistle accountwide and maybe reducing its cooldown a bit.
    Do... people actually need to look up how to walk around a mountain or along a cliff until there's a way up on wowhead or YT?

  16. #116
    Just make flight unlockable upon hitting the new level cap; I highly doubt anyone actually enjoyed hoofing it around Stormheim or Highmountain while farming ore or herbs long after they had completed all the quests there.

    If you want to hide behind the exploration excuse, tie it to the Explore *insert expansion location* and the Loremaster of *insert expansion*. I'm an advocate of flying ASAP purely to do how efficient it makes farming materials. Having to fight through a few packs of mobs to get to a node isn't compelling or engaging gameplay (looking at you Suramar and your obnoxious wolf population).

  17. #117
    Banned Jaylock's Avatar
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    They really need to flat out keep it out of current content all together. There really is no need to have it there.

    I'll settle with Pathfinder, but I wish that wasn't there at all. But the whiners want a worse game, and Blizzard cowed to them and came up with the compromise of Pathfinder.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Vargas View Post
    Just make flight unlockable upon hitting the new level cap; I highly doubt anyone actually enjoyed hoofing it around Stormheim or Highmountain while farming ore or herbs long after they had completed all the quests there.

    If you want to hide behind the exploration excuse, tie it to the Explore *insert expansion location* and the Loremaster of *insert expansion*. I'm an advocate of flying ASAP purely to do how efficient it makes farming materials. Having to fight through a few packs of mobs to get to a node isn't compelling or engaging gameplay (looking at you Suramar and your obnoxious wolf population).
    If flight was added upon reaching the new level cap, I'd unsub. Flight shouldn't be in the game at all.

  18. #118
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Him of Many Faces View Post
    you see them teleporters in argus? thats a test. if people like it flight might be in for some rough times.
    On the contrary these teleports are a test thats right but one to never disable flight again because every argument ever said against flying
    are nullified by teleporters and the teleporter whistle.

  19. #119
    Quote Originally Posted by Hitei View Post
    Do... people actually need to look up how to walk around a mountain or along a cliff until there's a way up on wowhead or YT?
    Well nobody needs to. You can wander around and eventually discover the right path but that kind of 'exploration' is not really what a lot of people want to do with their game time.

  20. #120
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Jaylock View Post
    If flight was added upon reaching the new level cap, I'd unsub. Flight shouldn't be in the game at all.
    Okay I just send a screenshot of this too Blizzard so we get rid of Jay forever

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