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  1. #101
    Merely a Setback Trassk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pateuvasiliu View Post

    Sylvanas did.
    Nope, it was already broken by time she came in.
    When Varian saw what they were doing in the Undercity all hopes of peace between the Horde and Alliance went kaboom forever.
    Varian disliking the horde didn't equal it being a broken faction.

    Everything Garrosh did was Thrall's fault.
    Nope, everything he did is his own responsibility, just like his father before him and the shit he pulled.

    Garrosh told him he didn't want the position.
    And yet he embraced it and took it anyway and fucked things up.

    Thrall expected an orc that grew up in Draenor to have the same mindsets as the New Horde, when all Garrosh knew was about the conquering orcs.
    Dranosh grew up on draenor, he didn't have an issue until he was killed and transformed into a deathknight.

    So yeah, garrosh is responsible for his own shit and the shit he caused. His father was responsible for the shit he caused and he died for it.
    #boycottchina

  2. #102
    Titan Zulkhan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pateuvasiliu View Post
    I find trying to kill your enemy less evil than experimenting on them, killing them and then raising them.
    I find someone trying to crush the whole world under his boot a bit more problematic than some bitch cleansing her borders of enemy presence while giving said enemies a second chance of existing they're free to either accept or reject. But hey, whatever.

    1. Garrosh doesn't need to explain himself to Cairne. He is Warchief.
    It's this kind of stupidity that eventually forced Garrosh into the mud. You don't go around and brag about a title you pretty much received for kind concession of the previous Warchief. Rather, you should work on gaining the trust of your allies and build a reliable image of yourself as a leader. That's something Garrosh never did, ever.

    The fact that Garrosh constantly felt the need to put his title between his allies and his persona is just proof of his deep insecurity issues.

    2. Garrosh added the '' to the death '' part to get Cairne to back down.
    Garrosh thought to make a coward out of Cairne and obviously Cairne didn't bite. The fault is still on Garrosh for proposing a duel to the death in the first place.

    The leader of the tauren had just tried to usurp him and honestly if the Tauren lost Thunder Bluff and Mulgore overnight to ONE tribe that's pretty pathetic.
    Mak'gora is a legitimate tradition and has nothing to do with "usurping". It's a show of strength and fighting prowess, no tricks involved. If someone proves to be stronger, by Horde's traditions, it's legitimized to claim the mantle.

    Tauren lost Thunder Bluff because Grimtotem are professional backstabbers that murder people in their sleep. Rather than brag about his fake victory like a moron, Garrosh should have sent reinforcements to drive the Grimtotem out. It would have ensured Baine's loyalty forever while leaving no debts hanging with Jaina and the Alliance.

    Which he did because Vol'jin told him he's going to kill him and he wasn't subtle about it.
    Wrong. He did that before Vol'jin even mentioned the thing. In fact, that's pretty much the straw that broke the camel's back.

    Not in Garrosh's eyes. Thrall was okay with them draining living beings/a Naaru/Fel, Garrosh was not.
    Fanfiction at its finest. Garrosh never gave two shits about that. He just held a precise set of prejudices towards them, as he had towards every Horde race minus Orc (obviously) and Tauren, probably because of their big muscles.

    Honestly Thrall being okay with Forsaken/Fel is why the lore of Warcraft went down the drain in the first place, because they needed an edgy class for the players and in the process ruined the character of Cairne/Thrall and made them okay with those horrible things.
    Being ok with Fel is such an atrocity indeed. It's not like the Alliance has a den of warlocks right beneath a tavern.

    War is war.
    Maybe not. Even the orc warrior trainer of Razor Hill rejects Garrosh as Warchief for wasting the lives of his young disciples recklessly and shedding their blood like water.

    Source?
    Heart of War. Garrosh has something negative in mind about every Horde race minus (again) Orcs and Tauren.

    Sylvanas did. When Varian saw what they were doing in the Undercity all hopes of peace between the Horde and Alliance went kaboom forever.
    That's some hardcore revisionism for sure now.
    Last edited by Zulkhan; 2017-10-01 at 04:42 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Keyblader View Post
    It's a general rule though that if you play horde you are a bad person irl. It's just a scientific fact.
    Quote Originally Posted by Heladys View Post
    The game didn't give me any good reason to hate the horde. Forums did that.

  3. #103
    The Unstoppable Force Friendlyimmolation's Avatar
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    This is incredible.
    Quote Originally Posted by WoWKnight65 View Post
    That's same excuse from you and so many others on this website and your right some of threads do bully high elf fans to a point where they might end up losing their minds to a point of a mass shooting.
    Holy shit lol

  4. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by pateuvasiliu View Post
    1. Garrosh doesn't need to explain himself to Cairne. He is Warchief. Cairne acted brashly and called Garrosh out, which is not something you do to the Warchief.
    Cairne's exposure to the position of Warchief was with Thrall, who again, was more than willing to hear opposing viewpoints and calmly explain his position. Garrosh treating the Warchief as a position of unassailable authority that brooked no question was what led to his downfall.

    2. Garrosh added the '' to the death '' part to get Cairne to back down. Also he was Warchief, there's no ''Thrall's rules'' anymore.
    Again, Cairne's exposure to the position of Warchief was under Thrall. He had no firsthand experience with Blackhand--and even Doomhammer ruled with more actual mangamity than Garrosh did.

    The leader of the tauren had just tried to usurp him and honestly if the Tauren lost Thunder Bluff and Mulgore overnight to ONE tribe that's pretty pathetic.
    The mak'gora settled any dispute between Garrosh and the tauren people by definition. And the "one tribe" was a tribe of assassins that struck in the dead of night--the book goes out of its way to mention that all the might and power in the world can't save you if your throat's slit while you sleep. That's why the tauren in Stonetalon were able to fight off the Grimtotem--by then, word had arrived of the Grimtotem assassinations. And again--as Warchief, it's Garrosh's job to look out for his allies, not to sit back and wait for the dust to settle. The fact that Baine had to go to the Alliance to get funding for mercenaries because Garrosh failed in his duties as Warchief over his pride played a big role in Baine's refusal to trust Garrosh going forward. Again you put the cart before the horse.

    Which he did because Vol'jin told him he's going to kill him and he wasn't subtle about it.
    The trolls were exiled to the goblin slums before Vol'jin threatened Garrosh--Garrosh even explicitly tells him to go back to the slums in the same conversation you describe. This after the trolls served the Horde loyally since shortly after Thrall reformed it.

    Not in Garrosh's eyes. Thrall was okay with them draining living beings/a Naaru/Fel, Garrosh was not. Honestly Thrall being okay with Forsaken/Fel is why the lore of Warcraft went down the drain in the first place, because they needed an edgy class for the players and in the process ruined the character of Cairne/Thrall and made them okay with those horrible things.
    They weren't okay with it. If you bothered to read quest text in the Hidden Enemies quest chain you would know Thrall was keeping Neeru under his thumb because it's easier to keep track of them that way. In no way, shape, or form does he implicitly trust the warlocks to operate unsupervised. He assigns you to sabotage the Burning Blade by posing as a friend to Neeru and report to Thrall all the while.

    And that has nothing to do with the fact that before the Divine Bell incident, the blood elves showed nothing but loyalty to the Horde after Thrall accepted them into the Horde.

    War is war.
    Using your allies as disposable cannon fodder and setting them up to be targeted by your enemies so your own people escape unscathed is not 'war is war,' it's betrayal and the entire reason Lor'themar began looking into other avenues. The entire reason he was in talks with Varian was because he saw the writing on the wall when Garrosh started using his people in high-risk missions for little tangible gains while his orcs sat safe and sound at Dominance Point. When Garrosh set the Sunreavers up, he instead looked into getting superweapons under his belt that he could use in the event Garrosh continued attempting to kill his people off.

    Source?
    Hang out in Warsong Hold for a few minutes around Garrosh and Saurfang. Garrosh's actions immediately suggest authoritarianism and racism against the Alliance--whom the Horde was in a ceasefire with because they were going up against the Scourge in the Scourge's own back yard. And every appearance he made for the rest of the Northrend campaign saw him disobeying his Warchief (and yet, as Warchief, he expects unquestioning obedience), antagonizing the Alliance for no reason other than to thump his chest, and he treats the same adventurers who saved his tribe from extinction as less than dirt, fit only to do as he decrees long before he was given the mantle of Warchief.

    edit: Also, as Zulkhan mentioned above, in Heart of War Garrosh looks down his nose at literally every other race he encounters--and again, this is before he was made Warchief. He has nothing good to say about the trolls, tauren, blood elves, or undead he encounters despite those same trolls, tauren, blood elves, and undead pulling his ass out of the fire in Outland.

    Everything Garrosh did was Thrall's fault. Garrosh told him he didn't want the position. Thrall expected an orc that grew up in Draenor to have the same mindsets as the New Horde, when all Garrosh knew was about the conquering orcs.
    Thrall is only to blame insofar as he refused to take action when it became apparent Garrosh was power-mad and surrounding himself with sycophants, leading the Horde back down the same path Thrall worked so hard to save it from. Garrosh made all his decisions himself--nobody held a gun to his head and told him to take the actions he took.
    Last edited by Thage; 2017-10-01 at 05:28 PM.
    Be seeing you guys on Bloodsail Buccaneers NA!



  5. #105
    You don't go around and brag about a title you pretty much received for kind concession of the previous Warchief
    That's exactly what you do. He is Warchief. He is supreme authority. End of.

    In Orcish society you can either gain support through wit or brawn. Garrosh showed both in Northrend and he was named Warchief. It's not Cairne's right to dispute that unless he wants to challenge the Warchief to combat, which he did and lost.

    I find someone trying to crush the whole world under his boot a bit more problematic than some bitch cleansing her borders
    That's Garrosh under Old God influence. He was content with waging war on the Alliance before it, a war the Alliance started after the Undercity.

    Garrosh thought to make a coward out of Cairne and obviously Cairne didn't bite. The fault is still on Garrosh for proposing a duel to the death in the first place.
    The fault is with Cairne for accepting.

    Mak'gora is a legitimate tradition and has nothing to do with "usurping". It's a show of strength and fighting prowess, no tricks involved. If someone proves to be stronger, by Horde's traditions, it's legitimized to claim the mantle.

    Tauren lost Thunder Bluff because Grimtotem are professional backstabbers that murder people in their sleep.
    It is unexcusable to lose your capital in a coup. It's laughable. Pathetic. The Grimtotem were ONE clan against a city that's a congregation of every important Tauren clan.

    Fanfiction at its finest. Garrosh never gave two shits about that.
    And you know that how? His treatment of them and Forsaken shows otherwise.

    Being ok with Fel is such an atrocity indeed. It's not like the Alliance has a den of warlocks right beneath a tavern.
    Which is where the lore of Warcraft went downhill, yes.

    Maybe not. Even the orc warrior trainer of Razor Hill rejects Garrosh as Warchief for wasting the lives of his young disciples recklessly and shedding their blood like water.
    Which probably happened after Garrosh went full Hitler in MoP, yes.

    That's some hardcore revisionism for sure now.
    Not at all, Syvlanas not only lost control of her city ( which resulted in a catastrophe via Putress ) but when Varian found out what she was doing he declared war on the Horde, something that had been avoided ever since Warcraft 3.

    She's pretty much the only one to blame for the war and whatever casualties occurred after.

    Cairne's exposure to the position of Warchief was with Thrall, who again, was more than willing to hear opposing viewpoints and calmly explain his position. Garrosh treating the Warchief as a position of unassailable authority that brooked no question was what led to his downfall.
    Garrosh had no duty to do so. A Warchief is not a president, he doesn't have to explain himself, he's the supreme leader.

    Thrall's pacifistic ways were criticised and questioned by many and in the end, while he created the New Horde and made it into a superpower everything that happened after was a string of mistakes.

    The mak'gora settled any dispute between Garrosh and the tauren people by definition. And the "one tribe" was a tribe of assassins that struck in the dead of night--the book goes out of its way to mention that all the might and power in the world can't save you if your throat's slit while you sleep. That's why the tauren in Stonetalon were able to fight off the Grimtotem--by then, word had arrived of the Grimtotem assassinations. And again--as Warchief, it's Garrosh's job to look out for his allies, not to sit back and wait for the dust to settle. The fact that Baine had to go to the Alliance to get funding for mercenaries because Garrosh failed in his duties as Warchief over his pride played a big role in Baine's refusal to trust Garrosh going forward. Again you put the cart before the horse.
    I wonder why the Warchief was reluctant to aid the faction whose leader questioned him openly and challenged him like 1 week into the office.

    Surely the fact that said faction also lost their capital to ONE tribe didn't help.

    I don't care if the Grimtotem were trained by Nathanos Marris himself, there's no excuse to losing your capital in a coup and having to go to the Alliance ( btw that's treason ) to take it back.


    Vision of Garrosh Hellscream says: Don't talk back to me, troll. You know who was left in charge here. Haven't you stopped to ask yourself why Thrall chose me instead of you?
    Vol'jin's image appears.
    Vision of Vol'jin says: Dere be no question why, Garrosh. He gave ya tha title because ya be Grom's Son and because tha people be wantin' a war hero.
    Vision of Vol'jin says: To which I tink ya be even more like ya father den he thought, even without ya havin' da demon blood.
    Vision of Garrosh Hellscream says: You are lucky I don't gut you right here, whelp. You are foolish to think that you can speak to your Warchief in such ways.
    Vision of Vol'jin says: Ya be no Warchief of mine. Ya've not earned my respect and I'll not be seein' tha Horde destroyed by ya foolish thirst for war.
    Treason again. Vol'jin was nothing but a coward.

    If he truly felt Garrosh was bad for the Horde he should've just challenged him to Mak'gora ( and died ). But he knew he'd lose, so he just allied with the Alliance to take him down.

    Is Garrosh an asshole? Sure is.

    But he was entitled to do everything that he did with Cairne and Vol'jin.

    The latter two believed that just because they saw the New Horde being born that meant they knew better. They didn't. Garrosh was needed in the war. Vol'jin and Cairne lacked the guts to do the things Garrosh did and yes that includes nuking the strongest Alliance outpost that side of Kalimdor.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Hang out in Warsong Hold for a few minutes around Garrosh and Saurfang. Garrosh's actions immediately suggest authoritarianism and racism against the Alliance
    That's all? The Alliance shows racism to Horde races all the time.

    hrall is only to blame insofar as he refused to take action when it became apparent Garrosh was power-mad and surrounding himself with sycophants, leading the Horde back down the same path Thrall worked so hard to save it from. Garrosh made all his decisions himself--nobody held a gun to his head and told him to take the actions he took.
    Thrall expected Garrosh to be a New Horde Warchief, utterly forgetting that Garrosh lived 95% of his life on a flying rock where he heard legends of the brutality of the Horde of old. I don't know why in the world he expected another Thrall, it wasn't going to happen.

    Garrosh ruled the Horde the way he was raised to, as an orc. The Alliance had declared war, the Night Elves had closed trade, he had to invade Ashenvale and keep his people fed and sheltered.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Dranosh grew up on draenor, he didn't have an issue
    Dranosh was a glorified quest giver.

  6. #106
    The Unstoppable Force Friendlyimmolation's Avatar
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    Not at all, Syvlanas not only lost control of her city ( which resulted in a catastrophe via Putress ) but when Varian found out what she was doing he declared war on the Horde, something that had been avoided ever since Warcraft 3.

    She's pretty much the only one to blame for the war and whatever casualties occurred after.
    Wrong, Varian wanted Lordaeron before he knew anything about what the forsaken were doing.

    http://www.wowhead.com/quest=13370/a-royal-coup
    Quote Originally Posted by WoWKnight65 View Post
    That's same excuse from you and so many others on this website and your right some of threads do bully high elf fans to a point where they might end up losing their minds to a point of a mass shooting.
    Holy shit lol

  7. #107
    The Insane Thage's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Friendlyimmolation View Post
    Wrong, Varian wanted Lordaeron before he knew anything about what the forsaken were doing.

    http://www.wowhead.com/quest=13370/a-royal-coup
    Don't bother, this mook thinks that people should be able to fight off assassins in their sleep, thinks that someone as hard up on orc culture as Garrosh wouldn't acknowledge that the results of a mak'gora settled an argument once and for all, and ignores evidence to the contrary so long as he gets to keep the fiction that Garrosh was not the single most active agent in his own downfall and demise, because like every other Garrosh fanboy, he drank the kool-aid when Garrosh just blamed Thrall for all his problems rather than man up and own his numerous fuckups.
    Be seeing you guys on Bloodsail Buccaneers NA!



  8. #108
    The Unstoppable Force Arrashi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thage View Post
    Don't bother, this mook thinks that people should be able to fight off assassins in their sleep, thinks that someone as hard up on orc culture as Garrosh wouldn't acknowledge that the results of a mak'gora settled an argument once and for all, and ignores evidence to the contrary so long as he gets to keep the fiction that Garrosh was not the single most active agent in his own downfall and demise, because like every other Garrosh fanboy, he drank the kool-aid when Garrosh just blamed Thrall for all his problems rather than man up and own his numerous fuckups.
    While garrosh fanatical worship of idea of evil surely was big part in it, Go'el is the most guilty. And nothing will change that.

  9. #109
    The Unstoppable Force Friendlyimmolation's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thage View Post
    Don't bother, this mook thinks that people should be able to fight off assassins in their sleep, thinks that someone as hard up on orc culture as Garrosh wouldn't acknowledge that the results of a mak'gora settled an argument once and for all, and ignores evidence to the contrary so long as he gets to keep the fiction that Garrosh was not the single most active agent in his own downfall and demise, because like every other Garrosh fanboy, he drank the kool-aid when Garrosh just blamed Thrall for all his problems rather than man up and own his numerous fuckups.
    I'm just more interested in the hysterical worship of Garrosh and Hatred of Sylvanas. Its always funny when it comes up because Sylvanas was actually nicer to the Horde and still is better as a WC then Garry ever was.
    Quote Originally Posted by WoWKnight65 View Post
    That's same excuse from you and so many others on this website and your right some of threads do bully high elf fans to a point where they might end up losing their minds to a point of a mass shooting.
    Holy shit lol

  10. #110
    The Unstoppable Force Arrashi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Friendlyimmolation View Post
    I'm just more interested in the hysterical worship of Garrosh and Hatred of Sylvanas. Its always funny when it comes up because Sylvanas was actually nicer to the Horde and still is better as a WC then Garry ever was.
    That's mostly because she continues vol'jins proud tradition of not doing anything as warchief.

  11. #111
    Titan Zulkhan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pateuvasiliu View Post
    That's exactly what you do. He is Warchief. He is supreme authority. End of.
    No, it's not. At all. Only a complete imbecile can seriously believe that such an attitude will win you any ally. Thrall knew better. Even Orgrim Doomhammer did. He understood the value to reason with potential allies and treat them as equal. Garrosh, in comparison, was nothing but an arrogant punk. Holy fuck, even freaking Blackhand held a better consideration of his warriors than Garrosh ever shown. Garrosh is the kind of Warchief who doesn't think twice about abandoning his warriors as along his precious war machine works just fine anyway, regardless of you being an orc or something else.

    In Orcish society you can either gain support through wit or brawn. Garrosh showed both in Northrend and he was named Warchief.
    Garrosh had to be closely watched by Saurfang to ensure he didn't screw up massively. And the reason he was chosen by Thrall it's because of 1) lack of candidates coupled with the unfortunate demise of the best one and 2) totally misplaced expectations of Thrall, something Thrall himself will admit in War Crimes, how wrong he has been in trusting Garrosh's strength of character, a strenght he proved to not possess.

    It's not Cairne's right to dispute that unless he wants to challenge the Warchief to combat, which he did and lost.
    Oh let me see if I got that right: Cairne's legitimate challenge was "usurping" but Garrosh maintaining his seat by using a poisoned blade to win the duel is perfectly fine. Yup, Horde's traditions honored to the finest there.

    That's Garrosh under Old God influence. He was content with waging war on the Alliance before it, a war the Alliance started after the Undercity.
    Lol no. Garrosh was never under Old God's influence. If it was, Y'shaarj just played on his already existing obsessions. But Garrosh always desired the destruction of the Alliance and the conquering of Azeroth under the Horde banner. The only variable changing is how psychotically obsessed he became with that goal and how no sacrifice eventually became grave enough as along it served his petty campaign against Varian.

    The fault is with Cairne for accepting.
    If Cairne declined he would have just proved himself a coward, someone who made accusations but wasn't willing to pay their price. Garrosh has been arrogant enough to seriously believe that such a declaration would have scared Cairne but that didn't happen. As ever, Garrosh acted like a self-centered moron who underestimated enemies and allies alike, believing he could instill fear on people by acting like a raging child. He went full tyrant exactly when he saw things didn't work that way.

    It is unexcusable to lose your capital in a coup. It's laughable. Pathetic. The Grimtotem were ONE clan against a city that's a congregation of every important Tauren clan.
    You definitely did a good job at showing your utter lack of counter-arguments. It never touched your mind that, maybe, there was a reason Magatha wanted Cairne dead and that, for some incredibly weird reason, she stroke exactly after he was killed? She would have never attempted something like that as long Cairne was alive. Magatha exploited a brief moment of vulnerability by backstabbing a capital deprived of its main leader, doing it in the most cowardly and treacherous manner imaginable, typical Grimtotem style.

    And you know that how? His treatment of them and Forsaken shows otherwise.
    It doesn't show anything. Go to read Heart of War and show me how many fucks he gave about naaru and magical vermin.

    Which is where the lore of Warcraft went downhill, yes.
    This doesn't address my argument and, consequently, deprives yours of any point.

    Which probably happened after Garrosh went full Hitler in MoP, yes.
    And? You deemed as "war is war" the very exact issue that orc raised: the reckless wasting of Horde lives.

    Garrosh had no duty to do so. A Warchief is not a president, he doesn't have to explain himself, he's the supreme leader.
    It's not a duty, is simply wise doing so. It's what an intelligent leader does. Unfortunately "wisdom" and "Garrosh" were like oil and water.

    Thrall's pacifistic ways were criticised and questioned by many and in the end, while he created the New Horde and made it into a superpower everything that happened after was a string of mistakes.
    History says that Garrosh's "superior" ways screwed him more than Thrall ever was. So no, if Thrall committed mistakes than Garrosh did much, much worse.

    Besides, pacifism =/= diplomacy. Any decent politician understands the usefulness of diplomacy. That's true even for dictators. That's precisely what made Orgrim a far superior Warchief than Garrosh. He knew how to talk and appeal people to follow him by using concrete arguments, not just abstract speeches.

    I wonder why the Warchief was reluctant to aid the faction whose leader questioned him openly and challenged him like 1 week into the office.
    Oh I don't know, maybe the fact that he was played like a fiddle and made a complete imbecile by the very people that usurped the place. Garrosh was used like a fucking pawn to fuel that treachery. That alone should have made him consider the little yet important fact that having Grimtotem as allies would have meant reigning with a dagger on your throat 24/7.

    Fortunately for Garrosh, that didn't happen. Unfortunately, not thanks to him.

    Surely the fact that said faction also lost their capital to ONE tribe didn't help.

    I don't care if the Grimtotem were trained by Nathanos Marris himself, there's no excuse to losing your capital in a coup and having to go to the Alliance ( btw that's treason ) to take it back.
    This is so idiotic that I can't even. The fact that you still bitch about the coup while ignoring the whole point of Magatha's plan is incredibly sad. It's like you're playing purposefully dumb for argument's sake.

    And holy fuck, which treason? The first treachery came from Garrosh who did jackshit to support allies his own naivety put in a shitty place. Cairne didn't betray Garrosh, he challenged the Warchief in a traditional Mak'gora and lost due to actual treachery of which Garrosh has been pawn and instrument.

    Garrosh had no excuses to sit in his cool seat and do nothing and consequently even less reasons to cry about treachery due to such inaction.

    Treason again.
    That's not treason, that's disrespect. Both are punishable but they're not the same at all. And if Garrosh wanted to punish Vol'jin he was free to, rather than "relocate" his people into the slums. Instead he didn't do anything to Vol'jin back then, not even when the latter threatened that if Garrosh's reign went to shit Vol'jin would have ended the Warchief's life. I wonder who the actual coward was.

    If he truly felt Garrosh was bad for the Horde he should've just challenged him to Mak'gora ( and died ). But he knew he'd lose, so he just allied with the Alliance to take him down.
    And here's another pile of shit. Vol'jin didn't challenge Garrosh because he never held any interest in becoming Warchief. Even in MoP he led the rebellion just to dethrone Garrosh, not to take the seat himself. He was fine with Thrall taking it back.

    When he "allied" with the Alliance the situation of Garrosh's regime was completely different. Garrosh's reign was completely corrupt at that point and ran by Kor'kron acting like SS. Vol'jin himself wasn't publicly challenged, he suffered an assassination attempt in the shadows, with Garrosh proving himself that he didn't care about public recognition, he was ready to lie and deceive everyone to get what he wanted. Tides of War made it clear that a fair challenge like the Mak'gora was no longer an option, with people like Malkorok in the Horde Garrosh's blade would have surely been poisoned by one of his fanatics to ensure their favorite Warchief remained on his seat. Malkorok and his followers didn't serve the Warchief, they served Garrosh and were ready to murder anyone and rig every challenge in order to protect him.

    Once the law has fallen under the control of a corrupt regime, rebellion is the only option left.

    The latter two believed that just because they saw the New Horde being born that meant they knew better. They didn't. Garrosh was needed in the war. Vol'jin and Cairne lacked the guts to do the things Garrosh did and yes that includes nuking the strongest Alliance outpost that side of Kalimdor.
    Your ignorance of lore is so embarassing that is not even fun the effort to keep going with this. You clearly didn't read a single page of Tides of War or Wolfheart.
    Last edited by Zulkhan; 2017-10-02 at 06:29 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Keyblader View Post
    It's a general rule though that if you play horde you are a bad person irl. It's just a scientific fact.
    Quote Originally Posted by Heladys View Post
    The game didn't give me any good reason to hate the horde. Forums did that.

  12. #112
    No, it's not. At all. Only a complete imbecile can seriously believe that such an attitude will win you any ally
    Except it's not about winning allies, it's about the chain of command.

    Garrosh had to be closely watched by Saurfang to ensure he didn't screw up massively. And the reason he was chosen by Thrall it's because of 1) lack of candidates coupled with the unfortunate demise of the best one and 2) totally misplaced expectations of Thrall, something Thrall himself will admit in War Crimes, how wrong he has been in trusting Garrosh's strength of character, a strenght he proved to not possess.
    1. Dranosh is a glorified quest giver with like 10 lines of text. There is no proof that he's some great hero. The only thing we've been shown is that he was broken by Arthas while Bolvar managed to hold on, so make of that what you will.

    Thrall's word isn't law, Thrall has been wrong plenty times and has betrayed his shamanistic morals several times. So I don't know why you'd give him as some sort of example. I mean he cheated in Mak'gora, his word is the same as any other coward's.

    Oh let me see if I got that right: Cairne's legitimate challenge was "usurping" but Garrosh maintaining his seat by using a poisoned blade to win the duel is perfectly fine. Yup, Horde's traditions honored to the finest there.
    Usurpation means taking someone's power or property by force
    Mak'gora is usurpation, if you want to be technical, but Cairne calling out Garrosh was not wise at all, considering he was new to the office.

    And Garrosh had no part in the poison business.

    If Cairne declined he would have just proved himself a coward, someone who made accusations but wasn't willing to pay their price. Garrosh has been arrogant enough to seriously believe that such a declaration would have scared Cairne but that didn't happen.
    Garrosh gave Cairne an out. Also you call Garrosh hot headed when Cairne did this


    “Garrosh!”
    Cairne’s bellow was loud and deep and echoed as he strode into Grommash Hold. The guards moved to him, allegedly to assist, not quite to intercept. He glared down at them
    balefully and snorted in derision, and they stepped aside.
    “Garrosh!”
    There was always somebody awake in Grommash Hold, tending the fires that never went out, making preparations for the following day, so it was not quite deserted, if still. Cairne’s
    shouting roused those who had been sleeping, and the rooms slowly filled with curious, still slightly drowsy onlookers rubbing their eyes and dressed in clothes that were obviously hastily
    donned.
    “Garrosh, I demand to see you!”
    “Nobody demands to see the leader of the Horde!” one of the Kor’kron spoke up, snarling.
    Cairne whirled on him with a speed that belied his age. “I am High Chieftain Cairne Bloodhoof. I helped create this Horde that Garrosh is currently undermining. I will speak with him,
    and Iwill speak with him now!”
    Which is completely shameful for him, to barge into Orgrimmar like that and DEMAND to see his leader.

    Then this


    “Your father did much ill, but he died doing a great good,” Cairne said. “And he would be ashamed of you right now.”
    “What?” growled Garrosh. “What are you talking about, tauren?”
    “I warned Thrall about you,” Cairne said, his voice as quiet as it had been loud before, ignoring the question for the moment. “I told him he was being foolish to give you so much
    power. I thought that one day you might be ready for it, but you needed experience and tempering. I was wrong. You, Garrosh Hellscream, are not fit to lead a pack of hyenas, let alone
    this glorious Horde! You will ride us to ruin, screaming and beating your chest like one of the gorillas of Stranglethorn the entire way.”
    You can make up as much bullshit as you want, Cairne jumped the shark big time and the Mak'gora to the death was warranted. In the Old Horde you'd get flayed for talking like that to the Warchief.

    the Horde that all is not lost! The honor of the Horde—”
    “How can you even utter that word?” growled Cairne. “Honor? Even now, you lie, Garrosh. You have not the honor of a centaur. At least admit what you have done. Own your foolish,
    selfish choices!” Garrosh suddenly grew cold. “You are an idiot to think me a schemer. Age has addled your wits. Because of the esteem in which Thrall inexplicably holds you, I shall ignore your
    prattlings as that of a madman. Thrall put me in charge of the Horde, and I will always do what I believe is best for it. Go now, and spare yourself the indignity of being bodily tossed out
    on your tail.”
    For answer, Cairne backhanded Garrosh right across the face, striking the fresh tattoo. So powerful was the blow that Garrosh staggered and nearly fell, crying out sharply in pain and
    flailing his arms in an attempt to keep his balance.
    “It is Iwho shall toss you out on your tail, impudent pup,” Cairne said. “That blow has been long in coming.”
    Then he strikes him, too.

    So spare the fuck out of me about Garrosh.

    No character? He's been honest from the start. He would be more than proud about attacking the Alliance, he wouldn't sneak.

    Instead Cairne goes full madman, marches into Orgrimmar, calls the Warchief names and then sucker punches him.

    And you want to tell me it was Garrosh's fault? Fucking please.

    Magatha exploited a brief moment of vulnerability by backstabbing a capital deprived of its main leader, doing it in the most cowardly and treacherous manner imaginable, typical Grimtotem style.
    Varian was gone for years and Stormwind survived quite fine. The Tauren were just weak in their defences.

    Besides, pacifism =/= diplomacy. Any decent politician understands the usefulness of diplomacy. That's true even for dictators. That's precisely what made Orgrim a far superior Warchief than Garrosh.
    Orgrim was a horrible warchief. A brilliant strategist, but a horrible warchief.

    He could've won the Second War but he chose to go after Gul'dan instead which resulted in his people being slaughtered or caged for 20 years. He could've won, but he chose his own 'honor' over the well being of his people. A horrible warchief.

    Results >>>> honor

    Garrosh was used like a fucking pawn to fuel that treachery.
    Lol the revisionist history is real.

    You meant to say CAIRNE.

    CAIRNE was used. The Twilight Hammer knew Cairne would go nuts because of Hamuul Runetotem ( who, hint, is NOT an orc ) telling him about the attack.

    Cairne went full retard and got himself in a fight to the death.

    That's not treason, that's disrespect.
    No, saying you refuse to acknowledge someone as your warchief and disobeying is treason. He also made death threats.

    Garrosh could've offed him then and there.. and if he had, we'd probably not have a rebellion in MoP.

    And here's another pile of shit. Vol'jin didn't challenge Garrosh because he never held any interest in becoming Warchief.
    Doesn't matter, if he felt he could've won he could've just killed Garrosh and let someone else rule.

    But he didn't. He ran like a coward and died like one, too.

    Vol'jin himself wasn't publicly challenged, he suffered an assassination attempt in the shadows, with Garrosh proving himself that he didn't care about public recognition, he was ready to lie and deceive everyone to get what he wanted.
    Vol'jin had already committed treason and threatened to kill the Warchief, boo-hoo.

  13. #113
    Scarab Lord Polybius's Avatar
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    He's not a hero. If he had succeeded, the orcs wouldn't have stood a chance against the Legion. The Legion would have more years to evolve. As for WoD.. that was Wrathion's doing.

    Garrosh was just another potential pawn with no direction. The fact that he's dead now just proves how f*cking useless he was; unlike him, Illidan had the chance to learn from personal mistakes.
    Last edited by Polybius; 2017-10-02 at 11:16 PM.

  14. #114
    I feel like citing any lore written MoP and on isn't really proving a point, since it was written less to forge a good story and more to push a conclusion. Think it's a big reason why he's so controversial, cause you'll have people citing this shit as proof of his madness and then other people citing a different character pre-MoP. Garrosh pre-MoP was everything an Orc could want in a Warchief and still had the potential to grow into an even better one - he had successes and failures but his future was never doomed until Theramore (written for MoP).

    People describing him as authoritarian and a dictator as if it's a negative thing clearly don't understand the post itself and what it embodies. The Warchief, in the past and present has been a post of absolute power - a mediator, commander-in-chief and sole ruler. People are spoiled with Thrall's vision of leadership, which they should be, he was great for a large margin of time for the Horde and brought them back to relevance. Expecting the same ideals, values and methods to be present isn't realistic, though, just as it isn't realistic for your current president to be similar to your future or past ones.

    To me, all his actions, good and bad, (pre-MoP, I stopped following at that point) made perfect sense from the view of a prideful and strong Orc that grew with stories of Horde conquests and with a pure vision of what the Horde is and should be. The Horde was never a diplomatically strong force in the Orc's eyes. The Horde had been a machine for conquest and progress and embodied strength and honor. Diplomacy only came as a strength for the Horde with Thrall and when he left, so too did that trait. The Orc race, though they followed Thrall faithfully and loyally, did not change in its core. They regained perspective, respect and spirituality, but they were still a warlike people that valued strength and honor - both traits that Garrosh were the embodiment of.

    Garrosh met every challenge with those traits. Cairne, Vol'jin, Ashenvale, Sylvanas - to expect him to respond with magnanimity is silly when in every Orc aside from Thrall, confronted with direct challenges and threats, you respond with strength.

    Conclusion: Spoiled by Thrall, vision of an Orc skewed and expectations unrealistic. MoP lore and everything following is shit.



    Quote Originally Posted by Thage View Post
    "Garrosh did nothing wrong" is the rallying cry of authoritarian WoW players everywhere. It's okay, guys, his boots're big enough for all of you.

    Garrosh is an example of why Byronic heroes don't work when you take them out of a vacuum. It turns out being xenophobic, refusing to listen to counsel unless it comes from a sycophantic yes-man or a manipulative serial killer masquerading as a sycophantic yes-man, standing for your own honor and glory only, and using others as disposable cannon fodder doesn't win you many allies when it really comes down to it. It does, however, encourage what allies you had to turn on you and cast you down in favor of freeing themselves of your idiocy. Which was kind of the point of Lord Byron's heroes in the first place--hubris and doomed moral causes lend themselves to tragic figures, not heroes with a long and illustrious career.
    cant post images or links; <insert Reinhard von Lohengramm> They don't work when they're written like shit.

  15. #115
    Quote Originally Posted by pateuvasiliu View Post
    Except it's not about winning allies, it's about the chain of command.
    You know nothing about leadership. You cannot act that way and expect your troops to follow you for long. Authority has to be earned, not just demanded.

  16. #116
    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    You know nothing about leadership. You cannot act that way and expect your troops to follow you for long. Authority has to be earned, not just demanded.
    Are we talking about the same position here?

    His Warchief status WAS earned. Everyone was aboard the Garrosh train. When Cairne fought him Garrosh's crowd at the arena was full of every Horde race, even Tauren who wanted Garrosh to win over Cairne, who's pretty much the Tauren Jesus.

    He earned it in both Northrend and in the wars against the Alliance, where he managed to take most of Ashenvale for the Horde. Then he beat Cairne in Mak'gora.

    Orcish society isn't built on nice words, this isn't King's Landing. The strong lead.

  17. #117
    Banned Rorke's Avatar
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    Yeah I don't understand why people try and apply human morality to a primitive faction of monsters.

  18. #118
    Quote Originally Posted by pateuvasiliu View Post
    Are we talking about the same position here?

    His Warchief status WAS earned.
    When? Before or after Thrall just handed it to him?

  19. #119
    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    When? Before or after Thrall just handed it to him?
    After, when he beat Cairne and successfully waged war on the Alliance.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan Cailan Ebonheart View Post
    Yeah I don't understand why people try and apply human morality to a primitive faction of monsters.
    I mean, humans in WoW wanted to genocide the orcs after the Second War..

  20. #120
    Quote Originally Posted by Kiraser View Post
    Title says it all.

    a couple of mistakes:
    - Thrall was his mentor
    - he was the one who wanted to rule everything

    No garrosh was not a hero.

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