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  1. #461
    Quote Originally Posted by Zoibert the Bear View Post
    I'm sure the thousands of pro-unionist Catalans that feel marginalized by the radicalized separatists would love to hear you say that.

    The hypocrisy is astounding, you don't give an absolute fuck about people, you care only about ideals. And that is fucking dangerous.
    Sure thing honey. You say I don't care about the people, but you endorse police brutality against innocent masses who just want to vote. Because in your world it seems, waving a piece of paper is as dangerous and threatening, as beating the living hell out of someone with a police baton.

    No matter how much you want to spin it, Spain already lost. Catalans will suffer a great deal, but the actions of Spanish government is turning away from them even the pro-unionist Catalans. It's 1991 Yugoslavia all over again. Only difference is that the communists actually allowed the referendum to take place in each of the federal republics that wanted their independence.

    How does it feel, when in terms of moral highground, you score lower than a bloody communist regime?

  2. #462
    If Catalonians are so dense they walk with "Catalunya is NOT Spain" (in English, no less), it is them who's already lost. They are "not Spain". They are negative. Their ideology is destructive.
    If Spain does not intervene with full force, arresting all the officials who sanctioned that travesty of referendum, Catalonia will die from economic collapse and mass emigration.

  3. #463
    Quote Originally Posted by Tackhisis View Post
    If Catalonians are so dense they walk with "Catalunya is NOT Spain" (in English, no less), it is them who's already lost. They are "not Spain". They are negative. Their ideology is destructive.
    If Spain does not intervene with full force, arresting all the officials who sanctioned that travesty of referendum, Catalonia will die from economic collapse and mass emigration.
    Ah, yes, further escalation will surely solve everything. Good plan.

  4. #464
    The Insane Acidbaron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spanish4ever View Post
    The funniest thing is that Madrid and the Spanish goverment are getting all the blame for the police brutallity when in realty it was Mercedes Armas, a judge in the supreme court of Catalonia that order the police (including mossos) to halt the referemdum by entering the schools and taking the ballot boxes.
    Because the PM puts the blame on the side of Catalans, what is more of the same if he would be pointing out this order was given without his knowledge what i seriously doubt to begin with that he was completely in the dark about it all. He would not be getting the blame he is getting now.

    However it is correct to blame him for the pure incompetence and completely losing the reins on this debate, he personally was one of the big reasons why people voted for independence. If the debate remain calm and controlled the vote outcome would not have come out as it stands now. Very few people went to vote and so that means a large part of voters seeing the vote was always rather close, so if it remained a normal day more moderates would have shown up.

    Belgium will probably send some EU diplomats considering our history and experience in this type of political chaos.

  5. #465
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017...ends-violence/

    90% of the voters voted for independent Catalonia. The separatists should really send a box of chocolate to the Spanish authorities. Spain lost this argument so bad, they might acutally end up losing a lot more than just this one region.

  6. #466
    Warchief Zoibert the Bear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Astalnar View Post
    Sure thing honey. You say I don't care about the people, but you endorse police brutality against innocent masses who just want to vote. Because in your world it seems, waving a piece of paper is as dangerous and threatening, as beating the living hell out of someone with a police baton.

    No matter how much you want to spin it, Spain already lost. Catalans will suffer a great deal, but the actions of Spanish government is turning away from them even the pro-unionist Catalans. It's 1991 Yugoslavia all over again. Only difference is that the communists actually allowed the referendum to take place in each of the federal republics that wanted their independence.

    How does it feel, when in terms of moral highground, you score lower than a bloody communist regime?
    If by innocent masses you mean violent people disobeying officers' warnings, get on your moral pedestal and stay the for as long as you wish.

    People like you would rather see the world burn and let anarchy be the rule of the land. The only wall keeping Democracy standing is the Law and its enforcement, not human morality.

    I know Spain lost, as much as Catalonia did. The was unwarranted violence from both sides. Stop victimizing a government that used its citizens as human walls of flesh to get away with better economic pacts, which is what will end up happening.

    It's all about lying to the masses to get economic landmarks achieved, you are just blinded by propaganda and victimism as every other media managed pupped out there.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Wyrt View Post
    The Spanish government basically handed that to the separatists by violently suppressing a peaceful referendum. Free propaganda for their cause straight from the government they want to leave.

    Should have let them vote instead of escalating to violence.
    Going against the law and spending Spanish citizens money on propaganda and infrastructure warrants a response.

    Of course it handed it to them and the constant victimism all over the social networks. But they knew what would happen if they blocked police officers yesterday, and still did.

  7. #467
    Quote Originally Posted by Wyrt View Post
    Ah, yes, further escalation will surely solve everything.
    There will be no escalation, it's not 1930. The bourgeois are not going to spill their blood for the independence. It is enough to show that their fronde will not be tolerated.

  8. #468
    Quote Originally Posted by Tackhisis View Post
    There will be no escalation, it's not 1930. The bourgeois are not going to spill their blood for the independence. It is enough to show that their fronde will not be tolerated.
    Sure it won't. Hundreds have already been hurt. The Spanish government escalating things further will not help unify the country, it'll make things much worse.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zoibert the Bear View Post

    Going against the law and spending Spanish citizens money on propaganda and infrastructure warrants a response.

    Of course it handed it to them and the constant victimism all over the social networks. But they knew what would happen if they blocked police officers yesterday, and still did.
    Would have been cheaper to just let the vote happen. Let the no's win. And then be done with the whole thing.

    Instead they decided to spend money to send the police in to beat people trying to vote and only managed to win more supporters of independence. Spanish government is retarded.

  9. #469
    Quote Originally Posted by Astalnar View Post
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017...ends-violence/

    90% of the voters voted for independent Catalonia. The separatists should really send a box of chocolate to the Spanish authorities. Spain lost this argument so bad, they might acutally end up losing a lot more than just this one region.
    Catalonia isn't getting independence, so I don't think Spain "lost". I don't agree with the violence used but as others have said getting independence isn't something you can just do on a whim. There is most definitely a right to self determination, but it's never been as simple as a unilateral declaration by a minority of the population establishing a new State, far from it. Historically the most accepted cases for secession are those of former colonies, especially where there was a history of consistent oppression of the population. Catalonia has neither and the burden of proof tends to be on the one looking to upset the existing order. Another thing that is extremely is important is international recognition, and I have not yet seen sweeping statements of support by other States for Catalonia as an independent future member of the United Nations. That should be a hint that things aren't going be as easy as you apparently think. In general States have a tendency to not want to mess with the status quo too much, because history tells us it almost never happens without creating a huge mess and potential bloodshed, as well as being a huge pain in the ass from a legal standpoint due to the existence of a gazillion different treaties and agreements that all need adjustment.
    Last edited by Warning; 2017-10-03 at 08:45 AM.

  10. #470
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    Quote Originally Posted by Astalnar View Post
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017...ends-violence/

    90% of the voters voted for independent Catalonia. The separatists should really send a box of chocolate to the Spanish authorities. Spain lost this argument so bad, they might acutally end up losing a lot more than just this one region.
    Must be nice knowing that one of the voters was Michael Jackson https://i.imgur.com/50dBeVh.jpg

    Sure won that one m'lady.

    - - - Updated - - -

    European Commission still backs Spain on the referendum despite police brutality. Guess the seperatists are getting sent a box of chocolate. instead.
    Last edited by DrMcNinja; 2017-10-02 at 12:31 PM.

  11. #471
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    Quote Originally Posted by Acidbaron View Post
    Because the PM puts the blame on the side of Catalans, what is more of the same if he would be pointing out this order was given without his knowledge what i seriously doubt to begin with that he was completely in the dark about it all. He would not be getting the blame he is getting now.
    To be specific, Rajoy is blaming the Catalan government; not a vague "side of Catalans", which could be interpreted as targeting citizens, or the Catalan judiciary.
    They know. Because the judicial orders are to be executed by... well... the executive. Given the Catalan executive is not exactly keen on stopping the referendum they're proposing, the central one is "forced" to do so. So they deploy agents, and when the local Catalan police claims to be incapable (unwillingness is being investigated) to halt the process in some area, they call the deployed national agents.

    However it is correct to blame him for the pure incompetence and completely losing the reins on this debate, he personally was one of the big reasons why people voted for independence.
    Yes. The central government has been ridiculous. On this issue and many others. And not just the current one: the Catalan issue has been a hot topic for decades.
    But on the blame-assigning game, one party is, at worst, incompetent, while the other is acting outside the boundaries of the law (both the constitution and the Catalan statute). I don't think we should blame the irresponsible party without investigating, and blaming, the illegal one.

    If the debate remain calm and controlled the vote outcome would not have come out as it stands now. Very few people went to vote and so that means a large part of voters seeing the vote was always rather close, so if it remained a normal day more moderates would have shown up.
    A day with a non consented referendum cannot be, in any way, a normal day.

    I'm not sure what the presence of more "moderates" would change. The vast majority of the events were quick and efficient: police show up, take the boxes, and leave. It's the presence of the radicals in some key places what makes the execution of the order to halt the referendum complicated. And, yes, eventually violent. These violent events will be scrutinized, and sanction applied where applicable.

    If we want to discuss who should take the blame for the violence we could point fingers at:
    -the individuals of the national police who "went too far" along with their commanders: I think they're identified, and will be investigated.
    -the central government: their narrative is that they were just following judicial orders. To assign blame here, we need to go through cause and effect, which is a very long chicken and egg exercise (and could go up a few centuries). The most proximate cause is twofold: first, simple incompetence, and second a series of decisions made by the interior minister in the early hours. These decisions involved when and how to deploy each of the Catalan or national forces, and the early inclusion of riot police (which was toned down along the day).
    -the Catalan government which were encouraging the people to go participate in an illegal procedure, knowing that police would show up. This blame is pretty simple to assign: the Catalan government (unconcerned as they are for the well-being of their citizens) pitted the people against the state forces, while being the only party entirely capable of halting the process on command: recalling the referendum.

    On the issue of violence, I think it's only fair to accuse the Catalan government of lawless malice, and reckless disregard for the citizens they govern, and that Madrid may have used disproportionate measures.
    Would you agree?

    Belgium will probably send some EU diplomats considering our history and experience in this type of political chaos.
    I think the condition for Belgium to do anything was these events turning into an EU issue. I'm not sure if it is yet. They'll probably wait for the unilateral declaration of independence in the next following days.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Warning View Post
    Catalonia isn't getting independence, so I don't think Spain "lost".
    The Spanish government lost the argument long ago: they didn't even show up to debate; ever. They've fiddled their fingers waiting for things to happen.
    While Spain, the nation, has an interest in keeping Catalans around, they all have different opinions on what the state should look like. Their government has proved ineffective in fixing the long standing issue of regional arrangements. They're bound by duty to the Spanish people, Catalan or otherwise, and they've failed to update a system in which they all can fit comfortably.

  12. #472
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Astalnar View Post
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017...ends-violence/

    90% of the voters voted for independent Catalonia. The separatists should really send a box of chocolate to the Spanish authorities. Spain lost this argument so bad, they might acutally end up losing a lot more than just this one region.
    I´ve been in Barcelona, I´ve seen the voting. People voted 3 or 4 times since the universal census was given in Cataluña on the morning of the 1st of October, there was no serius control at the electoral table (many just took a watch at the IDs and that was it), in some places ballot boxes were just put in the street and people literally pour votes they brought either from home or were given to them, no state´s census was given so there is no way they could compare the duplications or nulls votes and the only thing they have are sheets of paper with things anoted, to compare this manually it would take days or even a week to actually verify everthing. Also, the counting is done by the separatist parties of the goverment while the 40% of the goverment of Cataluña was excluded becouse they were non-indepent.

  13. #473
    Quote Originally Posted by DrMcNinja View Post
    Must be nice knowing that one of the voters was Michael Jackson https://i.imgur.com/50dBeVh.jpg

    Sure won that one m'lady.

    - - - Updated - - -

    European Commission still backs Spain on the referendum despite police brutality. Guess the seperatists are getting sent a box of chocolate. instead.
    Mhm, if you know anything of history, you'll remember how back in the 90ies the West was initially against the disolution of Yugoslavia as well. That still didn't stop the people in their own pursuit for independence. It took two years to get the internation recognition.

    EU will change the tune in due time. Because if they don't, they'll only get more backlash. And more backlash in this case means weaker EU. And weaker EU means more bargaining chips for the disgruntled Visegrad group, on one side, and Britain on the other. EU is caught between a rock and a hard place. They can deny the right to independence to Catalans in order to appease Spain, at the cost of weakening EU. Or they can support Catalans and anger the Spaniards. But in that case, EU ends up as the moral victor, who stands with the weak and oppressed. What do you think EU will do when faced with choice if the Spain doesn't deescalate the situation?

  14. #474
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Wyrt View Post
    Would have been cheaper to just let the vote happen. Let the no's win. And then be done with the whole thing.
    Can't do. Not with this one referendum.
    If they did, the entire nation and the state would be doomed. They're bound by the rule of law, and they must protect it. Not protecting the rule of law that the Spanish people, Catalan included, accepted is abandoning democracy, and any semblance of justice.
    They may be stupid. They're at least principled in the approach, and defending the hard earned democracy Spanish people have enjoyed for 40 years. They've been "letting things happen" all the way; but they have a limit in their incompetence: the rule of law. Unlike the unscrupulous scumbags populating the Catalan government, who pick and choose which laws to follow and which not to.

    If it was another referendum, one organized with the Spanish state, after whatever change their constitution needs, then maybe. So far, they're not seeking that path.
    Last edited by mmoc003aca7d8e; 2017-10-02 at 01:20 PM.

  15. #475
    Warchief Zoibert the Bear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wyrt View Post
    Would have been cheaper to just let the vote happen. Let the no's win. And then be done with the whole thing.

    Instead they decided to spend money to send the police in to beat people trying to vote and only managed to win more supporters of independence. Spanish government is retarded.
    I wholeheartedly agree with you. I also think a properly executed referendum and constitutional amendment should happen, but politics seem to get more retarded each generation.

    It's a big shame and I would like people all over the world to know that even if some of us do not agree with the process, we do want the Catalan people to be able to speak up and be able to vote on their concerns.

    But both the central and Catalan governments have acted as testosterone filled kids and have been completely stubborn. There's those who defend unity and those who would wish separation from Spain, but the only way to get this through is dialogue and politics. Violence should be out of the equation, but violation of the law will do no good either and deslegitimizes the whole thing in the eyes of their fellow citizens.
    Last edited by Zoibert the Bear; 2017-10-02 at 01:20 PM.

  16. #476
    Quote Originally Posted by Astalnar View Post
    Mhm, if you know anything of history, you'll remember how back in the 90ies the West was initially against the disolution of Yugoslavia as well. That still didn't stop the people in their own pursuit for independence. It took two years to get the internation recognition.

    EU will change the tune in due time. Because if they don't, they'll only get more backlash. And more backlash in this case means weaker EU. And weaker EU means more bargaining chips for the disgruntled Visegrad group, on one side, and Britain on the other. EU is caught between a rock and a hard place. They can deny the right to independence to Catalans in order to appease Spain, at the cost of weakening EU. Or they can support Catalans and anger the Spaniards. But in that case, EU ends up as the moral victor, who stands with the weak and oppressed. What do you think EU will do when faced with choice if the Spain doesn't deescalate the situation?
    I think most of the EU will respond with an eye roll and move along, avoiding the hot potato in the process. If any effort is made it will be in the background and with a goal of avoiding a schism that would create problematic choices in the first place, aka the status quo.

  17. #477
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Astalnar View Post
    stands with the weak and oppressed.
    Victim Olympics galore.

    oppressed
    əˈprɛst/Submit
    adjective
    subject to harsh and authoritarian treatment.

    The authoritarian party, here, is the Catalan government. The ones choosing to ignore the rule of law in their own pursuit of even more privileges and concessions.

  18. #478
    Warchief Zoibert the Bear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Astalnar View Post
    Mhm, if you know anything of history, you'll remember how back in the 90ies the West was initially against the disolution of Yugoslavia as well. That still didn't stop the people in their own pursuit for independence. It took two years to get the internation recognition.

    EU will change the tune in due time. Because if they don't, they'll only get more backlash. And more backlash in this case means weaker EU. And weaker EU means more bargaining chips for the disgruntled Visegrad group, on one side, and Britain on the other. EU is caught between a rock and a hard place. They can deny the right to independence to Catalans in order to appease Spain, at the cost of weakening EU. Or they can support Catalans and anger the Spaniards. But in that case, EU ends up as the moral victor, who stands with the weak and oppressed. What do you think EU will do when faced with choice if the Spain doesn't deescalate the situation?
    The moral highground is not of much importance while talking global politics though. Spains economy is multiple times larger than Cataluñas, and some of the largest economic powerhouses in Cataluña are, of course, Spanish; if independence happens, Cataluñas economy will take a big hit, and like it or not money fuels the world.

    Backing Cataluña will hurt the EU economically, as Spain is one of the largest economies in the Union.

    Not that I think this is good, but it's the status quo.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by sefrimutro View Post
    Victim Olympics galore.

    oppressed
    əˈprɛst/Submit
    adjective
    subject to harsh and authoritarian treatment.

    The authoritarian party, here, is the Catalan government. The ones choosing to ignore the rule of law in their own pursuit of even more privileges and concessions.
    The parallelism to the 30s Germany is actually quite astounding...

  19. #479
    Quote Originally Posted by DrMcNinja View Post
    Must be nice knowing that one of the voters was Michael Jackson
    It's even more retarded, giving the vote form is in Catalonian dialect. If they consider it a "language", all information should be duplicated accordingly.

  20. #480
    I am Murloc! DrMcNinja's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Astalnar View Post
    EU will change the tune in due time. Because if they don't, they'll only get more backlash. And more backlash in this case means weaker EU. And weaker EU means more bargaining chips for the disgruntled Visegrad group, on one side, and Britain on the other. EU is caught between a rock and a hard place. They can deny the right to independence to Catalans in order to appease Spain, at the cost of weakening EU. Or they can support Catalans and anger the Spaniards. But in that case, EU ends up as the moral victor, who stands with the weak and oppressed. What do you think EU will do when faced with choice if the Spain doesn't deescalate the situation?
    From whom, exactly? Police violence and an illegal referendum are two seperate matters, even if one resulted in the other. Of course you would side with the Catalans on the police brutality matter and give whoever ordered such force a good spanking.

    But siding with Spain on the credibility of the referendum is perfectly acceptable as it was set up illegally. Who would bark at the EU for siding with the law?
    Last edited by DrMcNinja; 2017-10-02 at 02:29 PM.

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